There are no ancient works which even approach the vast manuscribal holdings of the new testament. Nothing in extant body of Greek or Roman classics even comes close.
What other cultures from this period 1500-1200BC have an account of the children of Atreus beseiging Troy--Iliad?
These historians mentioned the Cult of Christianity and some of it’s beliefs, that’s true. But these people also mention things like dragons, magical lands and curses/hexes.
Which letter of Pliny's mentions dragons, etc? Tacitus Annals? Tacitus is an extra-biblical source that does corroberate that christians were worshipped Jesus (Christus). It was Plato who has Socrates making reference to "Atlantis", if I'm not mistaken.
...but there are still many people who believe Elvis is alive.
I know that many worship Elvis, but we know where his body lies. The Romans could have easily dispelled the "myth" by producing the body, torturing and interrogating the Roman detail responsible for keeping a lid on this. But they did not. It's not clear what treatment befell the Roman guard. My guess is it wasn't pretty.
There are thousands of people who have seen Bigfoot, UFOs and the Loch Ness Monster as well - that doesn’t necessarily mean any of those things exist either...even when they produce pictures, hair samples, burn marks, etc.
Of course none of this discounts the eyewitness testimonies where hundreds shared this experience. Bigfoot sightings are isolated events. UFOs and similar phenomena may have multiple witnesses and justify physical explanation. (We had the "Lights of Phoenix" a few years back. I saw it. I don't know what it was. However, had I seen a resurrected Jesus, that would be unmistakable and hard to explain, if I had witnessed his savage torture and execution.)
Baptism isn’t a new idea. ...The idea of having a sacred meal as a part of a ritual isn’t a new idea either. Gods connected with the harvest were often symbolically “eaten” at rituals honoring them.
The Jews have celebrated the Passover, since leaving Egypt, with a sabath meal.
Yet, if one's favorite is killed and shown to be a fraud, then it would be the height of disillusionment to use Baptism as a from of "recognition" with a resurrected Christ. Nor would there be any legitimate need to change the meaning of the passover meal in "rememberance" of a proven fake. Yet the early eyewitnesses faithfully kept these ordinances and preserved them as instructed by Jesus himself.
Right now there are suicide bombers training to die in the name of Allah: a god that the Christians reject.
The depth of selfish motivation is remarkable. But Jesus said "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends." Christian martyrs suffer to bring the gospel to a dying world, a world they wish to befriend. Their reward is already earned through Jesus' incomparable work, not any sacrifical act on their part.
Early Christians also tended to blend their religion with older pagan beliefs - pagan temples were converted to Christian Churches, many pagan dieties became “Saints” and pagan practices like the Easter Bunny and Christmas trees were adopted.
This charge is often layed against historial Christianity. It may be true of some Catholic practices, but Protestant christianity ascribes to sola fide, sola gratia, sola scriptura. I am a "saint" (hagios--a "set apart one") as all believers are (Romans 1:7).
I don't ever recall worshipping the easter bunny or incorporating the practice as part of resurrection observance. (Passover is the concurrent religious practice the resurrection answers).
Syncretism worked both ways. The 2nd century worship of Mythras probably borrowed heavily from Christianity. What is known about Mithras is a "mystery!" Not much to go on. (Mithras)
After the Emperor Constantine was baptised on his death bed (after saying prayers to ALL gods, lest he go to hell) that Church leaders took over declaring that Christianity was the official religion of the Empire. Thus getting rid of pagans became the order of the day. Many peasants suddenly found themselves forcefully converted by their governors and aristocratic overlords.
Now this reeks of syncretism (adopting/incorporating existing pagan practices). I can find nothing in the New Testament which condones "getting rid of pagans" or "forcefully converting" them. If you could provide a Bible reference, I'd I have to listen.
>There are no ancient works which even approach the vast manuscribal holdings of the new testament. Nothing in extant body of Greek or Roman classics even comes close.<
...so popularity proves that Jesus rose from the grave? Then what about that popular idea that the planets go around the Earth?
>Which letter of Pliny’s mentions dragons, etc? Tacitus Annals? Tacitus is an extra-biblical source that does corroberate that christians were worshipped Jesus (Christus). It was Plato who has Socrates making reference to “Atlantis”, if I’m not mistaken.<
My point is that these people wrote about many things: some of them far from being true. None of the works of Pliny or anyone else prove that Jesus rose from the Dead.
>I know that many worship Elvis, but we know where his body lies. The Romans could have easily dispelled the “myth” by producing the body, torturing and interrogating the Roman detail responsible for keeping a lid on this. But they did not. It’s not clear what treatment befell the Roman guard. My guess is it wasn’t pretty.<
You’re missing my point again. The point is that even in the modern day people still don’t believe that popular people are dead *even when we can demonstrate it*.
If we did exhume Elvis’ body for the world, a lot of the conspiracy buffs *still* wouldn’t believe it.
>Of course none of this discounts the eyewitness testimonies where hundreds shared this experience.<
This doesn’t prove Christ rose from the grave.
>Bigfoot sightings are isolated events.<
Thousands of people have claimed to see Bigfoot. If a couple hundred who saw Jesus after his death is considered “good” then thousands have to be considered “above and beyond.”
>However, had I seen a resurrected Jesus, that would be unmistakable and hard to explain, if I had witnessed his savage torture and execution.<
There are tons of things that can explain it: ergotism in bread, mass hysteria, rumors out of control, bad wine/olive oil, etc.
>Yet, if one’s favorite is killed and shown to be a fraud, then it would be the height of disillusionment to use Baptism as a from of “recognition” with a resurrected Christ. Nor would there be any legitimate need to change the meaning of the passover meal in “rememberance” of a proven fake. Yet the early eyewitnesses faithfully kept these ordinances and preserved them as instructed by Jesus himself.<
I stand by whawt I said: the Eucharist isn’t a new idea. Neither is Baptism. Neither is any other Christian practice.
>The depth of selfish motivation is remarkable. But Jesus said “Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.”<
...how does this prove Christ rose from the Grave now? How does this prove the Muslims are wrong?
>Christian martyrs suffer to bring the gospel to a dying world, a world they wish to befriend. Their reward is already earned through Jesus’ incomparable work, not any sacrifical act on their part.<
Buddhists have worked to bring the teachings of their founder to the world as well - does this mean that Buddhism is just as good as Christianity?
>This charge is often layed against historial Christianity. It may be true of some Catholic practices, but Protestant christianity ascribes to sola fide, sola gratia, sola scriptura. I am a “saint” (hagios—a “set apart one”) as all believers are (Romans 1:7).<
LOL - yeah, your ideas are so new. :)
>Syncretism worked both ways. The 2nd century worship of Mythras probably borrowed heavily from Christianity. What is known about Mithras is a “mystery!” Not much to go on. (Mithras)<
Yeah, a religion predating the birth of Jesus really did steal all its ideas from his followers...
>Now this reeks of syncretism (adopting/incorporating existing pagan practices). I can find nothing in the New Testament which condones “getting rid of pagans” or “forcefully converting” them. If you could provide a Bible reference, I’d I have to listen.<
Jesus talked to the Jews. His Disciples were all Jewish. He didn’t talk to the Gentiles. It was only after his death that they even considered taking Gentiles into their ranks. And then slowly they began to change things: eat pork, not be circumcised, eat shellfish, change the Sabbath day to Sunday, etc. But not everyone accepted their message. The Christians decided that stupid people NEEDED the light. Thus they began forcing people in to Christianity.
No, you won’t find this in the Bible...and you won’t find holidays called “Christmas” or “Easter” either. This is one of my big problems with Christianity and Christians: if you’re trying to live a “Christ like example” why don’t they follow Jewish customs and practices?