OFFICERS WHINE BY EXAMPLE (British Hostage Behavior)

New York Post ^ | 7 April 07 | Ralph Peters

[SkyPilot]

April 7, 2007 -- A SOLDIER'S law in the U.S. Army holds: "The maxi mum effective range of an excuse is zero meters." Yesterday, the two officers on a panel of former British hostages delivered nothing but excuses for their disgraceful conduct.

[mcshot]

Although I didn’t work at the FAFB survival school my friend did and he occasionally broke out in tears as implementing the training regimen was tough on them as well.

[Al Gator]

Please, don’t show me any more lengthy reports, I don’t read them.

I am tired of this debate, I have been in it since the incident occurred.

Regardless of how the incident occurred, his primary responsibility, in that squadron, is to the equipment, NOT THE CREW.

Sorry, its a fact of life. In the military, some THINGS are more important than some PEOPLE.

And this is one such case.

I know this isn’t penetrating peoples logic. It bounces off.

But if people are a commanders FIRST priority, hadn’t we just all surrender now and save all our troops?

Please, think this through a little.

[UltraKonservativen]

It’s ok to be scared while blindfolded but how do you explain all the smiles and sweet disposion while on television...sure did not look like motivated by fear.
They looked like stupid weak little teenagers kissing butt after being caught doing something wrong.
The final display of cooperation with the the little monkey was disgusting.
At least the girl looked a bit scared but as far as the men...in the words of Ann Coulters...Faggots! not that there is anything wrong with that :)

[M Kehoe]

Another good post Kabar.

Al gator, I just read the beginning of the thread, and will differ to your military training that I had assumed.

5.56mm

[forYourChildrenVote4Bush]

Question for you and anyone else:

Who are the guys wearing Blue and who are the guys wearing the combat fatigues? Is there a difference?

Thanks

[mortal19440]

Read the book called The Mark of the Lion. It details the courage of Charles Upham, a New Zealand soldier in WW II who earned TWO Victoria Crosses.

[Al Gator]

“If that is true, why wasn’t the pilot court martialled? Were you part of the squadron at the time of the incident? Is it conjecture on your part or specific knowledge of that incident?”

That's a good question and to answer it honestly, I simply do not know. What I believe is this, it was the first real test of 'W' as commander in chief.

In the touchy feely PC world before 9/11, I think he just wanted the plane back, (I don’t know why, closing the barn door after the fact)and the crew home, since the chicoms had already trotted them out for propaganda.

The whole thing was handled wrongly, the only reason I can think is that too many upper brass had gotten too mushy headed after the Clinton admin had them.

But your point is valid and really would like to know the answer too. So would the crews of the other plane who took the opposite approach.

[Al Gator]

LOL,

I was in the miltary, I served in the Pacific fleet.

I don’t know about the training part though, I was always referred to as a Civilian Under Naval Training. I can’t write out the acronym without getting blasted by the moderator.

But I was in that squadron as ground crew maintenance. I worked on Pappa Romeo 32 and other planes in the outfit. I did that for over 2 years.

[kabar]

Please, don’t show me any more lengthy reports, I don’t read them.

Lips get tired? Please don't give me any more of your armchair general view of events that you have no specific knowledge of. Yes there is a SOP, but you are just opining without knowing the specific details of the incident.

Regardless of how the incident occurred, his primary responsibility, in that squadron, is to the equipment, NOT THE CREW. Sorry, its a fact of life. In the military, some THINGS are more important than some PEOPLE.

I spent 8 years as a naval officer. That's true up to a point. If the pilot went through the destruction list and accomplished most of it, he has a responsiblity for the men under him as well. This was not a suicide mission.

I know this isn’t penetrating peoples logic. It bounces off. But if people are a commanders FIRST priority, hadn’t we just all surrender now and save all our troops? Please, think this through a little.

I have. Everything is not black or white. The OIC must make the best decision given the circumstances and facts at hand. If the pilot is as culpable as you say he is, why hasn't he been court-matialled?

[repubzilla]

careful-these are just 15 Brits and all of them did not act that way. Don’t nail all of our fighters with blanket statements...

[sargunner]

I attended SERE in ‘67 on the way to VN. Our E&E was in the Phillipines was a blast. Being chased by Negritos through the jungle/mountains, bug/snake/root eating, was informative but fun. The resistance portion, on the other hand, was NOT.

Being rousted out ot the barracks at 2AM, being hooded and taken to the camp, stripped, de-loused, stress positions, beatings, boxes, sleep-depravation via the incessant interrogations and the continuous screeching from the camp’s PA system. Living with your waste until such time the guards allow you to clean your cell. Wore a hood and restraints whenever out in the common area. I swore that when it was over I would find this ‘one’ guard, whom I could only recognize by his voice and boots, and beat the living snot out of him. But when it was over, I was glad to have been able to see how much I could endure. I shook the guy’s hand.

[Al Gator]

“I spent 8 years as a naval officer.” “This was not a suicide mission.”

Then you should know that intelligence/reconnaissance of the Q’s level is considered “front line” 24/7

“If the pilot is as culpable as you say he is, why hasn’t he been court-matialled?”

See my post 67. No armchair general here Kabar, just a guy who knew the inner workings of the outfit and question, like you, why he was’t court martialled.

Things have changed since I was in. I don’t know if some of those changes are for the better.

I usually look beyond “conventional thinking” and try to get at the problem.

What would it have looked like to the MSM (that wasted no time beating ‘W’ over the head) had he gone ahead and court martialed the pilot?

I think it would have been politically bad.

“Yes there is a SOP, but you are just opining without knowing the specific details of the incident.”

I did not opine on the incident. Only on the SOP and overall mission responsibilities of the commander of the plane.

You can call me all the names you like and impugn my character ad nauseam. I still question his decision and think he should have been brought up on charges.

[repubzilla]

Royal Marines=Fatigues (these guys were a bit steadier)
Navy=Blue (They were mostly the wavers-especially if you look at the expanded picture thats been posted)

I feel funky nailing these guys with the off handed, keyboard, coffe cup protection way that is happening on these threads. I do think they seem to have wussed out a bit-but then again-who the hell knows. A point that will be jumped on by the knee-jerkers-We are not technically at war (i know, I know-relax)with iran. I firmly believe these guys would have man-upped from the get go if the attackers were a defined enemy.
In the press conference the Marine mentioned that when surrounded the Iranians were acting erratic-up to that point-It could have been a standoff or one of those probing incidents. They were then overwhelmed. This is the problem with shadow wars-Rules of Engagement would have been different if they Iranians were the everyday enemy. I hope I’m explaining this correctly-waiting for coffee to kick in.

Bottom line-I was not there and the Iranians are not our up front enemies in the sense of seek and kill. I believe they will soon be. If they were captured by a declared enemy I would hope they would have held out better...who knows-some wussed and some did not...

[TruthFactor]

That is an excellent point. Society no longer wants to raise boys with what it takes to become war heros.

This is what 50 years of feminism has brought the West to. The feminist are trying like hell to do the same to the American military also.

[kabar]

I attended SERE in Whidbey Island, WA in 1967. They gave us two rabbits for 72 people and whatever we could forage, which wasn't much given the fact that there were plenty of groups before us. We slept outside in the rain. I lost 15 pounds in a week.

They had to relieve the guards of our POW camp not long after we left. They started playing their roles too realistically and enjoying it too much. The rules were revised later about the amount of violence they could mete out to the "prisoners." I wish we could have retaliated against some of the more sadistic ones. Still, a worthwhile experience.

[Teacher317]

what a statement..........!!!!!!!!!
It takes hundreds of years to be demoted to that level.
This ‘motley crew’ demoted themselves to the level of the French, not the military as a whole.

True, but it seems like at least 12 of the 15 were quick to capitulate. If that is a fair sample of Britain's military (and these were forward-deployed sailors and marines, so they should be among the best), then approximately 75% of their best troops are not very well-trained or well-prepared to defend their country's honor. It's a poor statistical sample size, but it is alarming nonetheless for such a long-term and reliable ally.

[kabar]

See my post 67. No armchair general here Kabar, just a guy who knew the inner workings of the outfit and question, like you, why he was’t court martialled.

I don't question that you were assigned to the squadron or worked on the aircraft at one time. I am questioning your knowledge of the specific details of what happened during that incident. As I asked you without receiving a response, were you assigned to the squadron at the time of the incident? Do you have specific knowledge of what was related during the debriefings in terms of what was destroyed? If not, you are just expressing an opinion.

I usually look beyond “conventional thinking” and try to get at the problem. What would it have looked like to the MSM (that wasted no time beating ‘W’ over the head) had he gone ahead and court martialed the pilot? I think it would have been politically bad.

He wouldn't be the first. Maybe he wasn't court-martialed because he did not commit an offense prosecutable under the UCMJ. Is that even a possibility in your mind? Or is he guilty until proven innocent?

You can call me all the names you like and impugn my character ad nauseam. I still question his decision and think he should have been brought up on charges.

You are entitled to your own opinion. We will agree to disagree. I think the pilot, Lt. Shane Osborn, was a hero who did a remarkable job of landing a badly damaged aircraft and saving the lives of his crew. So did the USN.

"Upon release, Osborn and his crew were honored as heroes for their bravery and courage in the face of absolute danger in the course of their duties. For his actions, Lt. Osborn was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for heroism and extraordinary achievement in flight as well as the Meritorious Service Medal. His crew all received the Air Medal."

Lieutenant Shane Osborn, U.S. Navy

[Verginius Rufus]

I wonder where those Iranian protesters are--in Iran, in London, in New York?

The sign on the left misspells "aggressors" and the sign on the right doesn't make sense: "Crush of the Authority"

What is that supposed to mean? The Palestinian Authority is endorsing Orange Crush?

[tenger]

I too went through Fairchild, oh, 25 years ago. Intense. I was enlisted. I remember seeing on of my "captors" later in the Base Exchange and thinking, 'this guy seems so so small now.' It's a great experience. Tough. We linguists had heard all of the horror stories for an entire year leading up to it.

Then they sent 1/10 of us fliers to florida for "different" and "advanced" training. It was Fairchild without having to survive in the woods. When we arrived later at our duty station, most of our co-workers had never heard of this training and I distinctly remember a SSgt telling a CMSgt, "I can't tell you about it. You don't have a need to know." The Chief went ballistic until he was given the phone number of General if he had any questions about it... Yeah, those were the days.

It is easy to sit in the comfort of our homes and pass judgment on the Brits or the P-3 folks for what they did, should have done, didn't do, but we weren't there. I would like to think that I would do as I was trained, but when your entire world is turned topsy turvy and the Iranians are saying 7 years prison, things look a bit different.

[Al Gator]

No, I was not in the group at the time of the incident. So in that sense you are correct. I am basing my opinion on SOP and general mission responsibilities.

I know how the Navy treated him aftwords.

I don’t think him guilty until proven innocent, nor am I suggesting he committed any crime other than poor judgement.

I am not the only one with this point of view, nor are you the only one with yours.

Civil discourse and disagreement are the norm here.

LOL, After all, I did overlook your major flaw of being a “zero”!