Brit Wimps

NRO ^ | April 3, 2007 | John Derbyshire

[balch3]

Once again, it's me and Ralph Peters on the same wavelength, deploring the cowardice of the British sailors and marines kidnapped by Iran. When it happened, I said I hoped the ones who'd shamed their country would be court-martialed on return to Blighty, and given dishonorable discharges after a couple years breaking rocks in the Outer Hebrides (which, believe me—I've been there—have a LOT of rocks). Now, I confess, I wouldn't shed a tear if some worse fate befell them.

The only coherent response I get to these sentiments is: "How do you know what they've been through? How would YOU stand up?" To which the obvious reply is the one Dr. Johnson gave in some similar case: "I may criticize a carpenter who makes me a bad table, though I cannot make a table myself. It is not my job to make tables." It is the job of a Royal Marine to fight, and if necessary suffer and die, for his country. They know that when they go in. It's what they are told! I nurse a quiet hope that if put to the test, I would stand up as well as any Marine. Whether or not I would, however, is irrelevant. Whether or not I could stand up well to torture, I expect Marines to.

And in any case, there was no evidence of torture or mistreatment in any of the filmed cases I have seen. They look just fine. You can't fake that. The girl sailor had that headscarf on within hours. From what I've heard of torture, even weaker cases can hold out for a few days.

[prairiebreeze]

tomorrow is now the word

[stuartcr]

Their attempt at propaganda was a joke to everyone...it definitely wasn’t worth a single human life.

[batco-barry]

“And unless something major changes, we won’t be able to count on the UK when the balloon goes up.”

What, you mean like not being able to count on the UK when the Iraq balloon went up, or the Afghanistan one went up?????
So, what major changes have been made since the UK went to war then????
You do know that the UK sent soldiers to both wars, and had many servicemen/women killed, right???

Put in perspective, the UK isn’t actually at war with Iran, well they weren’t the last I looked anyway. This incident could have triggered one though, but it didn’t. I have total faith in the UK to pass the test when it counts, as they always do....

[Tallguy]

they were ON the “dhow”.....a “dhow” so large it was carrying cars as cargo.....every pic of the “dhow” in question shows it to be actually a cargo ship, large and made of steel. The witness/journalist Ian Pannel says they were onboard....

why do you wish to pretend that a defense wasn’t possible???

I have a question: Do you believe that this was a setup by the Iranians? (I do)

If it was a 'setup', then the logical thing to do is have the target dhow be part of the exercise -- that way you, the kidnappers, control a major loose end. I mean imagine their (the Iranian's) surprise if the dhow was smuggling RPG's & the Brits found them -- then a defense could be mounted without question.

I have no evidence that the dhow was part of the plot, but it seems logical from a tactics standpoint.

[batco-barry]

I have mates in the bootnecks, they wouldn’t be happy bunnies if this crowd in Iran laid down arms when they’d been told to fight.

Don’t forget, we don’t know what the orders were yet...

[Vn_survivor_67-68]

I recall from more than one early article that the large vessel with the cars aboard had been anchored in the same spot for 5 days previous, within Iraqi waters.

5 days is probably not the norm in the area.....if the 5 day story is true, I’d be curious as to what prompted the inspection on the 5th day after being left alone for that long.......incoming bogue intel would certainly do it, I suppose....

[OldArmy52]

Support ship should have rescued their people.

Captain should have valued his people more than his career.

[Vn_survivor_67-68]

Or perhaps some activity that served as bait, once the IRGC ducks were in a row?

[thinking]

“Bucher did a lot more to avert capture than these Brits did”

It would have helped if he had ordered the crypto equipment thrown over the side....according to a recent Tv production the Russians setup the NKs to gain access to the coding equipment, so they could use the settings that Walker was selling to them....

[peekingfromabox]

"Support ship should have rescued their people. Captain should have valued his people more than his career."

yes.

[peekingfromabox]

"It would have helped if he had ordered the crypto equipment thrown over the side."

They did get rid of the most sensitive stuff, some even recieved citations for destroying secret info while seriously wounded. My feeling is that Bucher probably did everything humanly possible to destroy whatever he could before being boarded. But in any case, the North Koreans don't seem to have gained very much from whatever they found. And at least Bucher tried to escape, until his ship was surrounded and struck by torpedoes.

But the most important thing about the Brit situation for me was the fact that a powerful Brit frigate was sitting nearby and watching, doing nothing. I cannot imagine for the life of me a U.S. Navy destroyer sitting by doing nada while watching the Pueblo being illegally taken by the NK's in international waters.

[miliantnutcase]

Yeah, I agree. It is imperative to not give the enemy anything which could embolden or justify their cause. Them going on TV, etc did just that. I would probably puss out and pee my pants in the same position but I would do my damnedest not to talk.

[Christopher Lincoln]

I read Debyshire's article with a sort of despair. Is it possible that, after Vietnam (for starters), we still don't understand why our enemies make prisoners and hostages say bad things about their government and their cause? I will tell you why (not that I'm the first by a long way). They do it precisely in the hope that we will do what Derbyshire advocates. Actually, PISANO (post 27) is on to something when refers to the Code of Conduct; when the North Vietnamese tortured our soldiers and airmen, they were counting on America to punish the victims in accordance with the Code.

If you doubt this, watch the media in the coming days. Wonkette is on to the story already, headlining her account sarcastically "The Corner Supports Most of the Troops!". I'm sure this is just the beginning; soon, if not already, Derbyshire's article will be translated into Farsi and published in the (controlled) Iranian press. No doubt it will also get plenty of play in Great Britain's own moonbat media. Derbyshire is surely making the Iranian mullahs happy, although not as happy as they will be if - God help us - the British government actually follows his advice.

[thinking]

Yes, I understand that certain destruction materials, that were designed to burn the equipment didn't do the job....again, someone has postulated, that the sinking of the submarine Scorpion, was enabled by the use of the equipment seized, and the codes sold to the Soviets by Walker, which in turn permitted the Soviets to track the movements of the Scorpion...interesting theory....getting back to the recent dust-up...in the age of electronic communications, a incident like this affords the opportunity for both sides to evaluate the C & C of each other....

[Christopher Lincoln]

I believe that the Code of Conduct was (quietly) scrapped when our government belatedly recognized that its only real effect was to give the enemy an incentive to torture prisoners.