Posted on 04/04/2007 9:42:54 AM PDT by balch3
Once again, it's me and Ralph Peters on the same wavelength, deploring the cowardice of the British sailors and marines kidnapped by Iran. When it happened, I said I hoped the ones who'd shamed their country would be court-martialed on return to Blighty, and given dishonorable discharges after a couple years breaking rocks in the Outer Hebrides (which, believe me—I've been there—have a LOT of rocks). Now, I confess, I wouldn't shed a tear if some worse fate befell them.
The only coherent response I get to these sentiments is: "How do you know what they've been through? How would YOU stand up?" To which the obvious reply is the one Dr. Johnson gave in some similar case: "I may criticize a carpenter who makes me a bad table, though I cannot make a table myself. It is not my job to make tables." It is the job of a Royal Marine to fight, and if necessary suffer and die, for his country. They know that when they go in. It's what they are told! I nurse a quiet hope that if put to the test, I would stand up as well as any Marine. Whether or not I would, however, is irrelevant. Whether or not I could stand up well to torture, I expect Marines to.
And in any case, there was no evidence of torture or mistreatment in any of the filmed cases I have seen. They look just fine. You can't fake that. The girl sailor had that headscarf on within hours. From what I've heard of torture, even weaker cases can hold out for a few days.
(Excerpt) Read more at corner.nationalreview.com ...
So, it’s lives now, or potential lives later? I’ll take chances with the potential lives later, because things always change.
The self-defense in this case, was exactly what they did. They stayed alive to tell the truth, and they didn’t jeopardize other lives, by acting foolishly. Now that they are released, we will have their intel to use sooner, which we wouldn’t otherwise.
Exactly! Start a war. Since I’m the only Freeper who favors a unilateral pre-emptive nuclear attack against Syria, Iran, and North Korea, I see little chance of it happening. But happen it will, for eventually all deadly cancers need to be excised. The time is coming. Just remember. If they win, you appeasers will be the first ones to die!
That’s what is so nice about these internet forums, we can highlight all day long...with no consequences to ourselves.
How comforting your world view must be in these very complicated times.
Maybe. The problem is that this bet doesn't always pay off, unfortunately.
They stayed alive to tell the truth, and they didn’t jeopardize other lives, by acting foolishly.
On the contrary, I believe that jeopardizing other lives is precisely what they did. All British soldiers are valuable hostage-bait now.
remember: talking can be premature
Derbyshire is an a$$hole.
Was he there? Doesn’t this jerk know that the captain of the UK frigate was ordered NOT to interfere with the kidnapping of his men? Real easy to blame the victims, huh Derbyshire, you pr#ck.
No.
You nonchalantly blow right past the qualification at the beginning of the very sentence you snipped to cite, LOL
“Only when evasion by an individual is impossible...”
That in NO WAY implies that going limp upon approach by the enemy is proper or excusable.
Tallguy put this best so I’m going to quote him
“If you’re sitting in a zodiac with nothing but light shoulder weapons & pistols, and you get surrounded by patrol boats mounting heavy machine guns, the prudent thing to do is surrender or call on the support of your frigate. Since no help was forthcoming they did the only thing they could do — remember they couldn’t really inflict any casualties on the Iranians in the process (you can’t argue with Ma Deuce).”
What do you think they should have done? Swam for shore?
That’s why it’s a bet, and not a sure thing.
I think they always have been, along with ours.
Ah yes the Champions League showdown: Roma vs. ManU. Thanks for the reminder.
We need our football to lighten the weight of our times.
That is a fine distinction and one that I and probably many others had no idea was the case.
That the Navy personnel are being solely propped by the mullahs does speak to some code employed by the Royal Marines.
Hope this actually proves out too.
How true. This thread is somewhat touchy though. The consequences of this situation though bears much import, so not altogether overwrought. But emotions are running high.
Yes, I can totally understand that anyone in a position of power would generally want to avoid being seen as the ‘escalator’ of conflict, even when that’s what the goal is....
I believe that an escalation is sought after, but to make it more acceptable with the ‘middle of the road’ crowd back in the UK, the Iranians have to be the ones instigating the escalation.
I’m a 17yr serving soldier, an SNCO, and in my experience the ROE can be ‘mis-translated’. They’re not as black & white as people may think. As a junior rank, all you’ll be told in a mission brief are things like ‘shoot on sight’, ‘avoid contact at all costs’, in a nutshell, where to point your weapon and for how long, and also at what time to shoot and who to shoot, and what to do if it is quite specific that you do not shoot.
I remember an exercise I went on when I was young and green, where it seemed blatantly obvious that we were being used as spare parts firing at shadows. When I asked the screw what that had all been about, he said - after a certain amount of abuse for being so indignant as to ask the question - “Son, ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die!!!”
I suppose who gets the blame for this all lies with whether it is provbed the RN ships entered Iranian waters or not, and yes, the same rules don’t apply to Iran...
I try not to get too worked up over it, as it’s out of my hands anyway.
It was daylight. The Iranian vessels came from Iranian water, 2 miles away. They weren’t “suddenly surrounded”.
There was a journalist on board the ship, Ian Pannell, who said that they had just “boarded a dhow, a traditional Arabian sailing vessel, ... While they were on board, a number of Iranian boats approached the waters in which they were operating – the Royal Navy are insistent that they were operating in Iraqi waters and not Iranian waters – and essentially captured the Royal Navy and Royal Marine personnel at gunpoint.” (Scotsman)
http://righttruth.typepad.com/right_truth/2007/03/iranians_captur.html
Then, there’s the whole matter of the Cornwall watching, with radio contact with them......they could have easily made a stand on the vessel they had boarded, for long enough for help to arrive
Are they ALL there??
“It’s pointing out the hypocrisy of demanding that others put their lives at risk while sitting comfortably and safely behind a keyboard.”
Hypocrisy? You mean when Derb was captured by the Iranians he punked out? Learn the definition of “Hypocrit”.
The word you want to use but have no evidence for is “coward”. So go with the usual “chickenhawk”.
Meantime consider this: If you or England or America (or anyone) think you can change the historicaliy advisable conduct for soldiers to something more ‘sensitive’ or ‘thoughtful’ you WILL find yourself on the business end of a bayonet one day. If that ISN’T true then thousands of years worth of warriors were suicidal morons.
If you choose dishonor over war you will get BOTH(Churchill). Iran is in a declared war with the West. It doesn’t really matter if the West makes believe that have a choice in the matter because they don’t.
The victory that Iran takes from the feckless and weak and cowardly performance of the last few days gaurantees that Iran will escalate the declared war.
From that page “Two boats, each with a crew of six to eight multinational forces, were searching Iraqi and Iranian boats Friday morning in Ras al-Beesha area in the northern entrance of the Arab Gulf, but big Iranian boats came and took the two boats with their crews to the Iranian waters.”
Inflatable boats versus ‘big Iranian Boats’...seems feckless to suggest the James Bond option.
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