Posted on 03/05/2007 9:16:23 AM PST by pissant
We've been discussing the maps and the relative distances of things (as mentioned in the testimony) over the course of the past month, on multiple threads. I can see how having not partaken in those threads, the current discussion could be quite confusing.
Here are a couple good maps, but the distances discussed are from testimony and can't be measured on these:
http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w313/LagunaDave/fabens_close_labelled.jpg
WARNING on second link: This is a 6MB map.
Jess Harris Road is approximately at what is labeled "Tres Jacales Crossing."
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/us_mexico_border/txu_oclc_13545561_090.jpg
NORTH - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ->> SOUTH
levee rd | |
C D ____ | R |
A I . . | I |
N T ./ \. | O |
A C ./ \. | |
L H ./ \. | G |
./ \. drag rd | R |
R ||| _________ ./ \. +++++________Vega________________ | A |
O | N |
A | D |
D | E |
15ft | 43 ft |<--30ft--> 17ft <--30ft-->| <--- 230 feet, incl. drag rd---> | |
90ft
No. I remember adding the 30 ft until I realized after reading the testimony again, that the 230 feet was from the levee road to the Rio Grande, that would include the slope. I have read all of your other comments and concur. Your are correct about what the measurements mean. They are only used in this case to show that even without those additional considerations, the prosecution's story is incredible. I have verified everything by divider and map. The brushy area at the edge of the river causes a little bit of confusion as to the rivers edge.
That looks pretty good, except for the 30 feet to the side of the Rio Grande. I will try to find that reference in the testimony. Off for a bit.
REVISED
NORTH - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ->> SOUTH
levee rd | |
C D ____ | R |
A I . . | I |
N T ./ \. | O |
A C ./ \. | |
L H ./ \. | G |
./ \. drag rd | R |
R ||| _________ ./ \. +++++________Vega________________ | A |
O | N |
A | D |
D | E |
15ft | 43 ft |<--30ft--> 17ft <--- 230 feet, incl. so. slope and drag rd---> | |
90ft
Eggsactly!
Comparing Ramos and Juarez's testimony is interesting. From the above (post 217), Ramos pulls up 2 to 3 car lengths behind Davila (or 45 to 60ft), in time to see him jump into the ditch. He then had to exit his vehicle and walk/run to the edge of the ditch where he said he stopped and observed momentarily in the water of the ditch.
Compare that to Juarez. He says he was only 6 to 8 car lengths behind Ramos (90 to 120 ft) , yet parked further south than Ramos (i.e. closer by ~50ft), pulling his vehicle up on the left side of the van, all the way up to where his tires were touching the lip of the canal.
How could Juarez have possibly not have seen Ramos?
Juarez - Direct by Mr. Gonzalez Volume 8, p.166 13 Q. And when -- how far away were you when they came to a stop? 14 A. I was approximately six to eight cars behind. 15 Q. When they -- and then you take seconds to get there. Is 16 that correct? 17 A. Take seconds, yes. 18 Q. Where do you park? 19 A. I park to the left of their vehicles. 20 Q. Okay. Were they parked next to one another? 21 A. The van, yes. Volume 8, p.169-170 22 Q. Thank you. Agent Juarez, you see where the van is, 23 correct? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. Where did Agent Ramos end up behind the van? 1 A. His unit was -- I mean, almost right there behind the van. 2 Q. Behind the van? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And where did you park your unit when you arrived? 5 A. I parked left on the other side of the road. 6 Q. This area where I'm indicating with my pen? 7 A. Yes, on the left side. 8 Q. And did you -- how far did you drive? Did you drive as far 9 as this van did, or did you stop before this van? 10 A. I almost went there because I was going fast, so the 11 brakes -- I kind of slid. So the tires were also touching the 12 lip of the canal, my tires.Now, returning to Ramos, we have the following testimony. It clearly indicates that he thought more than one person was there, while he was still standing on the north side of the ditch. That also jives with OAD's testimony, who says that he saw 2 to 3 agents on the north side of the ditch.
Ramos - Direct by Ms. Stillinger Volume 12, p.190 12 A. Well, he kept ignoring Agent Compean, and he got up to 13 within, I would say, two feet of Agent Compean. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. By that time, there was plenty of yelling going on behind 16 me. I knew the other agents were there. 17 Q. Okay. What -- what kind of yelling? Did you hear what 18 they were saying? 19 A. Not legibly. I mean, there was -- there was yelling going 20 on, but I couldn't understand it. p.191 5 Q. Okay. Did you ever see Agents Juarez or Vasquez? 6 A. I -- I couldn't tell you where anybody was standing. 7 Q. Okay. Is there a time, then, when you decide to make a 8 move? 9 A. When that suspect got up to Joe, or Agent Compean, and 10 everybody else was yelling, he turned around to look at 11 everybody else. And I guess he knew he was outnumbered a lot 12 by then. 13 Q. Uh-huh. 14 A. He turned around to look at everybody. He turned around 15 and looked at me. And it was at that time he had a look 16 like -- well, to me, it was now or never. 17 Q. Okay. 18 A. It was at that time I holstered my gun. And he, at that 19 time, made a move on Agent Compean. And that's -- at that time 20 I jumped in the ditch.
To try and fix the prosecution theory we must move Davila closer to the levee than he says he is when the shooting starts. But remember, every second we move Davila towards the levee, he is moved 1 second away from the river. One notable thing which will play into the defense side of the scenario is that the placement of Davila where he is splits the total time from the ditch to the river in three practically equal segments of around seven seconds. 7.87 seconds from the ditch to the drag road, 6.67 seconds from the drag road to the middle of the vega, and 6.67 seconds from the middle of the vega to the river. If Ramos runs from the ditch to the drag road, Davila will be at the river. Davila will be slowing down by the river, and his testimony about his running position after the shots begin will influence his running speed. He will be slower.
Note my positioning of Davila is strictly interpreting what he said. The middle of the vega. If he meant to say the middle of the 230 feet the numbers given above will be 7.87, 5.67, and 7.67.
I have avoided using much of what Compean and Ramos have stated in order to show that prosecution witnesses destroy the prosecution theory. But both Ramos and Davila give testimony that there were agents on the same side of the ditch that Ramos was. BTW I think that Juarez and Vasquez were "friends". They had a relationship outside of the work environment. Juarez showed up to make a statement on 18 Mar without a lawyer, but knew to ask for a proffer letter. C. Sanchez was unfamiliar with them. While Juarez is being "debriefed", Vasquez shows up with a lawyer and requests a proffer letter. Coincidence?
I decided to test Ramos' father-in-law's numbers. He said he timed him from where he parked his car, up and over the levee to where he reached Compean. 1st time: 45 seconds; 2nd time: 39 seconds.
Given that Ramos parked a few car lengths behind the van, I'm assuming he parked about 50 feet north of the edge of the ditch. Given our other measurements, that means a run of 185 feet in total (including crossing the ditch--which one certainly can't run through). Anyway, using Loya's times and a distance of 185 ft, it works out to an average of 4.7 and 4.1 feet per second.
Car to ditch: 50 ft
Ditch: 15 ft
Ditch to dragroad: 120 ft
---
Total 185 ft
Then, working backwards, if I assume that 170 ft of the 185 was at your 15fps (which I agree with for a normal run--especially since 5fps represents a normal walk), it tells me that we have one mean ditch. The total 170 feet could be covered in 11 seconds meaning that the ditch itself took up between 28 and 34 seconds. [If we assume Ramos only ran at 10fps, it still puts the ditch at 22 to 28 seconds to cross, a pretty substantial time.]
Vasquez and Juarez indeed were the only two that admitted they had had a social relationship outside of work. I completely agree about them sharing info at the time they gave their first statements. I reached the exact same conclusion.
From drawing that simple map above, there is one thing that is obviously off scale, and that is the height of the levee. It is not as steep as shown. However, I did draw it to scale and it brings up the question again of exactly how much someone could see of a person standing on the south side of the levee. It actually looks worse than I thought because the view is first obstructed by the north edge of the levee road, unless the individual was further north on the canal rd--or Jess Harris rd. Did you post those calculations before? I looked but couldn't find them.
We don't know the speeds up to the ditch, but after that the race is on. It could be that Ramos jogged up to the ditch. That would add two seconds to the non-ditch time. It is still quite a ditch. The numbers say so, 63 degree slope.
I went out today in search of a dirt road to put to bed in my mind the stories of Juarez and Vasquez. I knew that the numbers I used in order to give the prosecution's story a chance, but I was not completely aware of how ludicrous those numbers were. It took me a while to find a dirt road out here in West Texas, they've been pretty busy using up asphalt, but I finally found a decent one. It looked like the average dirt road around here, gravelled, a bottle or two along the sides, washerboard in places and visible small potholes every so often. Well, as I stated to Bob J before(in so many words), 20 MPH was almost undetectable at producing a dust trail. At 30 MPH dust was visible but not obscuring. At 40 MPH the dirt trail I produced with a Yukon XL was obscuring to around 2 or 3 lengths from what I could tell. At 50 MPH the trail was definitely obscuring to 6 or 7 lengths and the trail was long enough that I could see it being blown off of the road by a ~10 MPH breeze. Finally, I panic stopped the Yukon from 30 MPH and maintained floor pressure on the brake. I did not lose control and I stopped straight in about 50 to 70 feet. I had fences on either side to help my estimations. It turns out that the value I used for m namely .6 at 30 MPH gives a stopping distance of 50.177959183673465 ft. Pretty dang close and coincidental.
What these things tell me is that the folks were going around 50 MPH on the dirt road and for all practical purposes, the three agents on the north side of the ditch were there within a 10 second window. ( Ramos + 100 ft + Juarez + 200 ft + Vasquez ) at 30 MPH(44 fps) = (100 + 200)/44= 6.8
I've been reading some of the testimony again.
It amazes me how the defense let the prosecution lead witnesses and put words in their mouth.
Where the heck are the objections???
Juarez - Direct by Mr. Gonzalez Vol 8, p.174-175 12 Q. Okay. And as this fleeing person jumps across, what does 13 Agent Compean do? 14 A. He moves, makes a couple of steps towards him. And -- may 15 I get up? 16 MR. GONZALEZ: Your Honor? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 A. That's when the driver of the van went in front. That's 19 when Agent Compean moved in front of his path. And I don't 20 know if he was going to block him or he was going to go like 21 this. 22 BY MR. GONZALEZ: 23 Q. What do you see happen? 24 A. He raised his butt, the weapon. 25 Q. And aimed it at who? 1 A. At the driver of the van. 2 Q. And did he not only aim it, did he actually swing it? 3 A. He went like this. 4 Q. And just a partial swing or full swing? 5 A. No, it was a full swing. 6 Q. And did he hit the fleeing driver? 7 A. No, he did not.
By the way, the statement in purple is the only time any witness (in all of the testimony) alleged that Compean "swung" the gun at Aldrete-Davila. All of the other multiple utterances come out the prosecutor's mouths.
The defendants will be eligible for early release after they serve 85% of their sentence.
I believe the document dated April 12 was produced to the defense, because it appears that it was used as the basis of questions in several places by the defense in the cross examination of the different agents who testified. Obviously it could not be introduced into evidence, But from reading the transcript, it does look like they had it.
I wonder why Mary Stillinger reacted as she did when this came up in the press.
I assumed that she was basing her cross on her client's statements to her.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.