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To: DaveTesla
I don't particularly care whether or not anybody might have have found Jesus' tomb (which would be damned near impossible to prove one way or another), whether Jesus was the son of God or the son of a carpenter, or anything like that at all. Jesus WAS a devine messenger and the message he brought to earth involved morality and conduct and still rings true 2000 years later.

Hundreds of witnesses saw Jesus after he had died and dozens went to their deaths rather than deny this. One deluded individual might willingly die for a known falsehood, groups of people do not.

As to resurrection, I would assume Jesus would have no more use for a dead body than I would and that what people saw for all the world looked and sounded as if he had been resurrected in the flesh but that such was not actually the case and that what they experience was basically paranormal in nature. In fact, had Jesus actually spent 40 days walking around a Roman protectorate in a dead body, Roman soldiers quite certainly would have noticed that, and done whatever was necessary to put a stop to it.

3 posted on 03/03/2007 2:23:37 PM PST by rickdylan
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To: rickdylan

Thomas' confession after he put his hand in Jesus' side after the resurrection indicates it was bodily.

This body also was able to pass through walls, as in the upper room. Thus, only appearing to believers, and avoiding the Roman soldiers would not have been hard to do.

The effects of sin that Adam brought in did not just affect the spirit of but also the body. Thus the reason why we all die. Our spirits are dead to the things of God and our bodies are dead to immortality. The resurrection body of Christ not only proved that the consequences of sin on the spirit have been redeemed but also that the consequences of sin on the body has been redeemed.

If the body does not overcome death, then sin still has the power over it. On the contrary, Paul writes that Christ has conquered sin. "Oh death, where is thy victory? Where is thy sting? Read 1 Corinthians 15.


6 posted on 03/03/2007 2:37:47 PM PST by uptoolate (If it sounds absurd, 51% chance it was sarcasm.)
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To: rickdylan; Charles Henrickson; cpforlife.org; Coleus; Caleb1411; Utah Girl; Mr. Silverback
First your offering, then comments:

I would assume Jesus would have no more use for a dead body than I would and that what people saw for all the world looked and sounded as if he had been resurrected in the flesh but that such was not actually the case and that what they experience was basically paranormal in nature. In fact, had Jesus actually spent 40 days walking around a Roman protectorate in a dead body, Roman soldiers quite certainly would have noticed that, and done whatever was necessary to put a stop to it.

Jesus had precious use for a body following His crucifixion. The body that Jesus presented to Thomas was physical, not an apparition. Following His resurrection, He met the disciples in Galilee and asked for something to eat ... they gave Him fish and He ate it in front of them, to show He was not an apparition. In fact, the disciples are reported to have offered this very same question to Him upon seeing Him risen from the tomb! And He went out of His way to show them it was in fact He in the flesh, the resurrected, transformed flesh. So, why is this important to note?

The Romans were going out of there way at the time of Jesus's crucifixion to appease the Jewish leadership. To have a faked crucifixion of the leadership's main antagonist of that day would have been grounds for revolt, something Pilate was sent to Jerusalem to prevent. When the Romans crucified a man, he stayed dead. Were there to be a body rotting in some hideaway, the Romans and the Jewish leadership would have found it, to end the controversy and seal the deal -so to speak- of Rome giving the Jews something they cried out for, the death of this agitator from Galilee.

Had Jesus not been dead when removed from the Cross, the Romans would have been culpable for aiding a revolt against the Jewish Sanhedrin's authority and thus it would undermine Roman authority. No, He died on the Cross, and a rich man gave his tomb to have Jesus buried quickly because of Jewish law. On the third day He arose from the tomb and transformed His body, the body which had been crucified leaving nail marks, scars from scourging, a spear stab in the side, and thorn wounds.

When questioned by the disciples in Galilee, Jesus showed them the marks and told Thomas to touch Him so that he would no longer doubt that It was indeed Him come back to them, as proof of the spiritual power undergirding His promise of spiritual salvation and bodily resurrection for each of them. When He ascended into Heaven, He took that resurrected body with Him, a body that could take in cooked fish and be felt when touched ... He took the body to prove His divinity, not to hide His body from corruption; the scriptures read that He would not see corruption.

So, what purpose do these fabrications for doubting the divinity of Christ serve? Well, for Simcha this fabrication is a wealth builder and feeds Simcha's twisted ego. For common folk wondering if this Christ is God and can He actually save their immortal soul, the media pieces and the seemingly scholarly discussions of same work wonders to block repentance and humility before God ... 'who would humble their soul before a myth being refuted on television?'

Don't aid and abet the enemy of Christ, the father of lies, a murderer from the start. The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto your Salvation ... and if the crucified body rotted on Earth, your salvation would be a scam. Choose you this day ...

17 posted on 03/05/2007 2:54:35 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: rickdylan
If the Resurrection (or the Ascension, or a combination of the two) was a guy leaving a dead body and going somewhere in spirit, it would not be any more a miracle than when Anna Nicole Smith dropped dead three weeks ago. The Resurrection, for example, proved God had the ultimate power over death. Therefore, the idea that Jesus was "resurrected" as a spirit, appeared to His disciples as a spirit (why would He invite Thomas to touch wounds that were not available to be touched?) and ascended as a spirit are not only inaccurate, contrary to what is known about the events and antithetical to the moral teachings you respect Him for, they basically amount to a ghost story and shouldn't be the foundation of a life of faith anymore than any other haunting.

In fact, had Jesus actually spent 40 days walking around a Roman protectorate in a dead body, Roman soldiers quite certainly would have noticed that, and done whatever was necessary to put a stop to it.

I'm curious to see what you mean here. Do you mean that Christians who believe in the Resurrection believe in the concept of (as they used to say on Futurama) "Sweet Zombie Jesus?" You think we're saying that a rotting body hiked around Palestine for 40 days?

I don't particularly care whether or not anybody might have have found Jesus' tomb (which would be damned near impossible to prove one way or another), whether Jesus was the son of God or the son of a carpenter, or anything like that at all. Jesus WAS a devine messenger and the message he brought to earth involved morality and conduct and still rings true 2000 years later.

If Jesus was not what he claimed, then He is not the great moral messenger you hail. To paraphrase C.S. Lewis, if Jesus is not God (see John 8:58 for an example of where He claims to be the Almighty) then He might as well be claiming to be a poached egg. Get out your Bible and go through the Gospels and I'm sure you'll find at least ten places where He says something that is a lie or the babble of a madman if it is not being said by God in the flesh.

While we're on that subject, why (in Revelation 1:8, 21:6 and 22:13) do God and Jesus both describe themselves as the Alpha and the Omega? If Jesus is not God, then he is standing in heaven lying to John in Revelation 22. In Revelation 1, after God says He is "the Alpha and the Omega...who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty," in verse 8, Jesus appears to John:

"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."--Revelation 1:17-18

Yet you say it doesn't matter whether you believe that He's the Son of God, or whether He actually rose bodily from the grave. Why doesn't it matter? Can you really follow the one who called himself Truth while not caring what the truth is about Him?

Paul wrote that if Jesus did not rise from the grave, Christians were in the worst condition of any men. Christ's message isn't worth anything if it was issued by a mere man who got killed and became a ghost.

23 posted on 03/06/2007 12:04:17 PM PST by Mr. Silverback ("Logic" is as meaningless to a liberal as "desert" is to a fish.--Freeper IronJack)
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