Posted on 03/02/2007 6:14:30 PM PST by governsleastgovernsbest
Why do you ask the same hypothetical that Alicewonders already answered and you said you respected what she had to say?
Hypothetical to answer your hypothetical. Both sides losing to Hillary.
The solib republican splits the base. The MSM turns on him the moment he is nominated. Hillary wins. Republican party is split.
The socon republican wins the nomination, loses to hildebeast in a tough fight. Republicans are united against the hillary presidency.
Which candidate is best for the republican party?
Great quote. The issue is "70 or 75 percent of the goal." Even RWR would agree that with rudy, we would only get about 20-30% of the goal, and then when you compare it to Duncan Hunter and you get 90% of the goal, the choice is obvious.
Maybe that would be a principled pro-choice position, but it is not Rudy's position. I'll take a principled pro-life candidate over a principled pro-choice candidat any time it's offered, especially during primaries.
Culture of life:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVBtPIrEleM
ABC clip:
George Will: "Do you think Roe v Wade was good constitutional law?"
Rudy Giuliani: "Yes I believe, I believe it is."
Cnn Clip:
Announcer: "Giuliani was then asked whether he supports a ban on what critics call partial birth abortions, something Bush strongly supports."
Rudy Giuliani : "No, I have not supported that, and I don't see my position on that changing."
He is not trying to take away my gun and would enforce our laws on illegals.
***Wrong. Does that mean you'll be changing your vote to the pro-RKBA candidate who's right on immigration, Duncan Hunter?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVBtPIrEleM
Immigration
CNN clip:
Announcer: "Back in 1996, mayor Giuliani went to federal court to challenge new federal laws requiring the city to inform the federal government about illegal immigrants."
Rudy Giuliani: "There isn't a mayor or a public official in this country that's more strongly pro immigrant than I am. Including disagreeing with President Clinton when he signed an anti-immigration legislation about two or three years ago."
Gun control:
CNN clip
Rudy Giuliani: "I'm in favor of gun control"
Meet The Press:
Tim Russert: "How about registration of all handguns?"
Rudy Giuliani: "You know I'm in favor of that. I've been on your show many times."
"Which candidate is best for the republican party?"
Neither. A Democrat won.
Wrong answer.
One candidate caused the republican party to split. Rudy. Your answer indicates that you don't care about the health of the republican party and would choose the candidate who splits the party just because you agree with him.
Since you couldn't find yourself answering the dilemma, why do rudy supporters push a false dilemma onto socons when there is a clear choice candidate during the primary season?
Sorry, I don't know where you are going with this. My vote in the primaries is for Duncan Hunter. However, should he lose in the primaries, then my candidate is whoever the Republicans put up.
This really isn't difficult. And the question isn't to me so much as it is to the Conservatives. If Rudy wins, will the Conservatives vote for him or stay home?
Because if Rudy wins the nomination and Conservatives vote for him, then Rudy will win the election. I cannot say the same thing for McCain. Nor can I say the same thing if Hunter wins and the moderates go third party. In that case it will be a Democrat that wins in 2008.
"Since you couldn't find yourself answering the dilemma, why do rudy supporters push a false dilemma onto socons when there is a clear choice candidate during the primary season?"
Sorry Kev. I had to read the question again. Good question by the way. And here is your answer. There isn't a clear choice candidate because many Republicans are not Conservatives but most Conservatives are Republicans.
So who runs the party and how do they get the other factions to vote their way?
Here's your answer. It looks like rudy loses about half the socon vote. That's about 10 Million votes. I don't think he can attract 10M crossover votes. Hillary would eat his lunch and the MSM would turn on him. His candidacy is doomed.
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/poll?poll=172
Let's just say that Hillary (or someone equally as vile) gets the Democrat nomination and a pro-life, anti-gay marriage, pro-gun, pro-defense, pro-borders, pro-small government, pro-low taxes, peace through superior firepower patriot gets the Republican nod. Who would you vote for in the general?
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/poll?poll=171
"Let's just say that Hillary (or someone equally as vile) gets the Democrat nomination and a pro-life, anti-gay marriage, pro-gun, pro-defense, pro-borders, pro-small government, pro-low taxes, peace through superior firepower patriot gets the Republican nod. Who would you vote for in the general? "
Well, since I am voting for the Conservative candidate, I think I will stay with that.
Now your turn. If it is Rudy vs Hillary, who do you vote for?
I almost skipped this post because it was from you to yourself...
Since you couldn't find yourself answering the dilemma, why do rudy supporters push a false dilemma onto socons when there is a clear choice candidate during the primary season?"
Sorry Kev. I had to read the question again. Good question by the way. And here is your answer. There isn't a clear choice candidate because many Republicans are not Conservatives but most Conservatives are Republicans.
***The previous post answers that. There IS a clear choice today during the primaries. According to one of those polls, the solib splits the base. Reading some of the threads here on FR, it means he risks splitting the republican party for good. That's really BAD, by the way. The socon gets 90% of the base, an energized core to GOTV, and he pushes forward on two strong crossover issues -- Immigration and fair trade. Rudy is no frontrunner if he couldn't win Spartanburg yesterday. Duncan is within 1% of rudy, and both supposedly lost to McCain (try not to laugh).
So who runs the party and how do they get the other factions to vote their way?
***This is the process, right here and right now, and you and I can help determine the best candidate for president. Hopefully the republican party isn't so stupid as to risk a permanent split. I've heard it say that the socon right are the new blacks in elections -- republicans take them for granted. It won't take long for the republican party to learn what a drastic mistake that is.
Now your turn. If it is Rudy vs Hillary, who do you vote for?
***I already voted in that poll. And since today it is NOT Rudy the solib versus Hillary the solib, I don't have to answer the false dilemma until someone ansers my false dilemma I pose to them. In the meantime I will be pushing my socon candidate on this socon website, and wondering why some Rudy supporters (I know,apparently you're not one of them) are pushing their solib candidate on a socon website. His whole spiel is that the "new base" is the center, so why aren't they going after the center instead of browbeating socons and splitting the party?
Please check out the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVBtPIrEleM
But Rudy has gravitas, and after all isn't that the most impoortant characteristic of a candidate-that they have gravitas.
So basically you won't answer the question. It is a simple question. It isn't a trick question. It is a question that both you and I need to answer, because the reality is it could happen.
Conservatives will vote for the Conservative candidate in the primaries. Moderates will vote for the moderate. If the moderate wins, what will the Conservatives do?
I heard everything from stay home to vote only in local elections to run a third party candidate. Any of those three give the election to the Democrat.
Ever notice how Hannity does this to liberals? He asks them a simple question and they refuse to answer it. Come on, we are 130+ posts in. Simple question, simple answer. I'll even give in on this one, let's say it is McCain instead of Rudy.
Do you vote for the moderate Republican, do you vote for the Democrat or do you do something else?
"But Rudy has gravitas, and after all isn't that the most impoortant characteristic of a candidate-that they have gravitas."
Actually, I believe 9/11 changed the way we pick a President. Let the ideologues(I am using the term in a good way) handle local and state elections. For President I want two characteristics. He is a leader and he doesn't give a hoot about public opinion polls.
Without vetoproof majorities or the will to go nuclear, Presidents will never get anything accomplished. Congress has become too divisive. We could wind up with 7 judges on the SCOTUS before all is said and done.
I don't know as much about McCain. I respect that McCain spent several years as a prisoner of war in the Hanoi Hilton. He's also kind of nuts. But I have more respect for him than I do for Rudy. If he is well described in this poll, then I have already voted.
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/poll?poll=171
And as I said, I don't see the need to answer a false dilemma question until my false dilemma question gets answered by a rudy supporter with whom I can debate. This is a socon website and I'm a socon pushing for my socon candidate. RINO/SCINO supporters need to answer the question as well why they push SoConInNameOnly candidates on this forum. If they want to redefine conservatism by using false dilemmas, it will fail.
Looks like our true blue conservative did pretty well in our prior poll. Let's now see what happens if we nominate a social liberal who's okay with abortion, gay unions and gay rights is a gun grabber and is weak on illegal immigration. Who do you vote for in the general?
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/poll?poll=171
"And as I said, I don't see the need to answer a false dilemma question until my false dilemma question gets answered by a rudy supporter with whom I can debate."
I'll take Rudy's position for the sake of the argument.
He is a pro-choice, pro-gay, anti-gun Republican who wants to put strict constructionists on the court, keep our streets safe and protect this country. I believe this is called by todays standards a moderate.
His main opposition in my humble opinion is Duncan Hunter & Mitt Romney. Romney governed a state, Hunter is a Congressman. Romney is the more liberal of the two. McCain plays to the public opinion polls which means he is doing what is good for McCain. And Newt hasn't announced anything so we cannot even begin to think about him. But he is a force to be reckoned with in the event he does run. Again in my humble opinion, Newt is the voice of the Republicans.
So we have 5 candidates, Newt, Rudy, McCain, Hunter & Romney. I think you will agree with me Hunter is the most Conservative and therefore should get our vote.
Not Newt? No. Newt is divorced therefore he is with sin and considering him for the Presidency is hypocrisy. Out. McCain? Self absorbed and will sell out to the RATS. Gone. Romney? Pro-abortion until he saw the light. I don't buy nor will I buy a Mass. Republican. Bye-bye. Rudy? We already know he is a liberal. C-ya. Which leaves Hunter.
Veteran, Conservative and a good person. But he lacks two things. He is not a leader and the moderates from both parties will not vote for him the minute the RAT candidate comes to the middle. And that is the problem.
This nation has been taken to the left. Each cycle the RATS weaken the right just a tad more. The way I see it the nation looks like this:
Conservative = Conservative
Republican = Democrat or moderate.
Democrat = Liberal
Liberal = Marxist
A good chunk of the Republicans who are in office today are Kennedy (John not Ted) Democrats. Liberal on Social issues but believe in a strong defense. Those are todays moderates.
Sorry, got off track. This is about debating Rudy. We already established that Rudy is a liberal, or moderate. We also established that Hunter is a Conservative.
One other thing we know about Rudy is he is a leader and no one can debate that. How much does leadership count in a post 9/11 world? What is more important to America? Worrying about abortion, gay marriage and gun control legislation that belongs at the state level or protecting this country from the next 9/11?
Locally we are winning every pro-life and anti gay marriage legislative battle. Those are the wins we must have. Hunter nor Rudy will have any impact on it. On the National level, we know Hunter will promote it, but it will not go anywhere. Same as with Rudy promoting the other side. It will not go anywhere.
Ok, 3:00 a.m. and why I am up is beyond me. Let me close with this. Leadership is for everyone, ideology is for a portion of the country. And the question should be asked this way, can Duncan Hunter win the nomination and can the Republicans convince enough moderates to vote for him? Or if Rudy wins the nomination, will his leadership abilities and promise to nominate strict constructionists be enough to convince the Conservatives to leave ideology at the state level and come on board?
I am choosing Hunter, but if Rudy wins the nomination I will vote for him based on those two qualities. The question is, will you? Or you, or you?
Did Mr. Robinson already post this question?
I like Hunter, and would support him if I think he could win. I think he will be more viable in the future. His name recognition is low and a candidate needs much money early to run for Pres.
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