Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: raygun
"Maybe so, but Gehenna and Sheol are."

And both refer to the spiritual recycling center rather than Dante's Inferno.
61 posted on 03/02/2007 2:56:36 AM PST by familyop
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies ]


To: familyop
I appologize for the brevity of my response. However, this is a serious matter, and I have no idea whether you will still draw breath tomorrow and Eze 33:1-9 speaks loudly to me. Shalom.

I understand why you think that way, in that Gehinom is fairly well defined in rabbinic literature. While it sometimes is translated as "hell", and certainly is considered to be a terribly unpleasant place - it is not understood to be "hell" in the full sense of the term. The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that souls are not tortured in gehinom forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be twelve months, with extremely rare exception. This is the reason that even when in mourning for near relatives, Jews will not recite mourner's kaddish for longer than an eleven month period. Gehinom is considered to be a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden ("Garden of Eden"). The origin of this thinking stems from the discussions of medieval scholars regarding the nature of existence in Olam Haba (the "world to come"), i.e., the aferlife. Maimonides on the one hand describes an entirely spiritual existence for souls, which he calls "disembodied intellects," while Nahmanides on the other, discusses an intensely spiritual existence on Earth, where spirituality and physicality are merged.

The Jewish Talmud refers to temporary punishments, but these references do not match the current doctrine of purgatory. In Rosh HaShanah 16b-17a, those who are between the sinful and the righteous are thrown temporarily into gehenna, but this event takes place on Judgment Day, not after one's own death. Sabbath 33b says the wicked are to suffer twelve months of punishment after death.

Be as that it may, the meaning of Gehenna must be established from facts furnished by the Scripture, not foisted upon us by extra-biblical philosophy or human tradition. To the intellectually honest reader of the Hebrew Scriptures, Gehenna can only be construed to mean a verdict which, besides condemning a man to death, also ordains that, after death, his body should be cast into the loathsome valley of Hinnom. This is the inherent sense of Gehenna in the Hebrew Scriptures, and as such one can certainly be assured that this is the very sense in which Christ used the term.

Geenna (#1067) represents the Hebrew Ge-Hinnon (the valley of Tophet) and a corresponding Aramaic word. Both the Hebrew and Aramaic rendering refer to the Valley of Hinnom's son." It is found 12 times in the NT, eleven times in the Synoptists, in every instance as uttered by the Lord Himself.

According to Strong, Gehenna is of Hebrew origin (#1516 and #2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:--hell. According to Jewish eschatology - concerned with the Jewish Messiah (Mashiach), the continuation of the Davidic line, and Olam Haba (which is Hebrew for "the world to come"; i.e. the afterlife), as found in the Tanakh, the Talmud, Rabbinic Commentaries - Gehenna, is a fiery place where the wicked are punished after they die or on Judgment Day.

The valley refered to forms the southern border of ancient Jerusalem and stretches from the foot of Mt. Zion, eastward, to the Kidron Valley. It is mentioned in the Tanakh several places (notably II Chr 28:3; 33:6; 2 Kgs 23:10) as the southwestern gate of Jerusalem, overlooking the valley, came to be known as "The Gate of the Valley". Jeremiah 7:31; 19:2-6; 32:35; the Book of Jeremiah (2:23) speaks of Jerusalemites worshipping Moloch and committing abominations, foreshadowing the destruction of Jerusalem. Originally it referred to a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem (in modern-day Israel) where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped.

Smith’s Dictionary of the Bible Volume I, states:

It became the common lay-stall garbage dump of the city, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast.
The dump was full of rotting garbage which sent up a stench that could be smelled for miles. Furthermore, this valley was frequently not controlled by the Jewish authority within the city walls. In II Kgs 23:10, King Josiah forbade the sacrificing of children to Moloch at Gehenna (though Baal is not mentioned in this particular verse). Rabbi Shlomo Yitzhaqi, author of the first comprehensive commentaries on the Talmud and Tanakh (works which remain a centerpiece of contemporary Jewish study - his commentaries being an indispensable companion to both casual and serious students of Judaism's primary texts), claims that the Tophet was the Molech. Since priests would bang on drums so that the father would not hear the groans of the child when he would be burned by the hands of the pagan image, Molech, they called it Topheth.

There are contemporary accounts of people who worked at dumps serving a city equivalently sized to Jerusalem during the time of the Roman Empire. The refuse would be put in large piles and set on fire. All day rains, even 4 inches in one hour, would fail to extinguish the flames. There would have been no way for the people of ancient Jerusalem to have quenched the fires of Gehenna either. The remains of animals were put in pits to be covered and worms (Greek, Maggots-Young, Page 1074) would get into them, and even after many gallons of insecticide was poured into a pit, the remains were observed to be continually moving due to the working of the maggots within the corpses. Back in the 1950 (and prior), many cities did not have landfills but had garbage dumps where they would heap their garbage into piles and set them ablaze. Big city garbage dumps were always burning night and day, and the smoke could sometimes be seen for miles. These were the same as Gehenna during the time ancient Jerusalem, and were literally used for the destruction of the unwanted city garbage. Brimstone (sulfur) was added to keep the garbage burning in Gehenna, and it was always burning night and day, and those near by could see the smoke always rising. On some of the four occasions Christ used Gehenna as a metaphor, those He was speaking to probably would have seen the smoke emminating from Gehenna in the background while He was speaking. The people of Jerusalem did not have a trash pickup as we do, and had to take their own trash to Gehenna, therefore, most of those Christ was speaking to would be intimately familiar with the never-ending fires and worms that He spoke of; many would have taken their trash to it. Albert Barnes in his commentary on Mat 5:22 says, "The extreme loathsomeness of the place, and filth and putrefaction, the corruption of the atmosphere, and the lurid fires blazing by day and by night, made it one of the most appalling and terrific objects with which a Jew was ever acquainted."

Children of Judah burned their sons and daughters in the fire in this valley, and Jehovah said, "It shall no more be called Topheth, nor The valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Topheth, till there be no place to bury. And the dead bodies of this people shall be food for the birds of the heavens, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall frighten them away. - Jer 7:31,32
Sheol (#7585) in contrast has 65 occurances of the word distributed throughout every period of biblical Hebrew. The first connotation of the word intimates the state of death (Psa 6:5; cf. 18:5). It is also used for the final destiny of all men (Job 21:13). Hannah confessed that that it was God who brings men to Sheol, or kills them (I Sam 2:6). The word is parallel to Hebrew words for "pit" or "hell" (Job 26.6), "corruption" or "decay" (Psa 16:10), and "destruction" (Pro 15:11).

Jacob is attributed to the first use the word in Gen 37:35. It is used of a place of concious existance after death (Psa 16:10). And the wicked are stated to receive punishment there (Num 16:30; Deu 32:32; Psa 9:17). People are put to shame and silenced there (Psa 31:17). Jesus referred to Isaiah's use of the word (14:13-15) in pronouncing judgement on Capernaum (Mat 11:23), where Sheol was translated in the Greek to Hades.

Sheol is described as being an undesirable place for the wicked (Job 24:19), and a refuge for the righteous (Job 14:13), and a place of reward for them (Hos 13:14; cf. I Cor 15:55). Jesus' teaching in Luk 16:19-31 reflects accurately the Hebrew scripture teaching of Sheol, in that its a place of concious existance after death, one side occupied by the suffering, unrighteous dead seperated by a great chasm from the other side peopled by the righteous dead enjoying a reward.

However, Peter uses the word tartaroo (II Pet 2:4), which intimates consignment to Tartarus, which in fact connotates neither Sheol, nor Hades (#86), but the place where those angels whose special sin is referred to in that passage are confined "to be reserved unto judgement"; the region is described as "pits of darkness".

Hades, is used as referance to "the region of departed spirits of the lost" (but including the blessed dead in periods preceeding the ascension of Christ). It has been thought by some to be etymologically meant "the unseen" (from a, 'negative", and eido, "to see"), but this rendering is questionable; a more probable derivation would be from hado, signifying "all-receiving". It nevertheless corresponds to the Hebrew Sheol. In the King James translation, without exception, everywhere in the Old testament where the word "hell" appears, it is always translated from the Hebrew Sheol. Unfortunately, the KJV also rendered Sheol as "grave", e.g., Gen 37:35; or "the pit" (Num 16:30,33), although the latter is a proper translation. However, the term "Hades" never denotes the grave, nor is it the permanent region of the lost; in point of time it is, for such, intermediate between decease and the doom of the everlasting fires of Gehenna.

When we examine the original Hebrew, we find that the word gibrah is properly used for "grave" and is properly translated throughout the Old testament as "grave, burying place, and sepulchre" (e.g., Gen 47:30; I Kgs 13:30; II Sam 2:32; 3:32; Psa 88:5; etc.). Sheol is never in any case in the Old testament ever referring to grave, burying place or sepulchre; but, rather a place located in the center of the earth. The grave, burying place and sepulchre houses our dead bodies, but Sheol is the compartment that contains the imoortal souls and spirits which animated earthly bodies. A location for Sheol can be inferred from Pro 7:27; Isa 5:14; 14:9, 15, where the word "beneath" is translated out of the Hebrew tachath. It comes from a Hebrew root word meaning "to depress, the bottom, below and underneath", i.e., Sheol is located depressed, below, underneath and in the bottom of the earth.

In Psalm 139, David praises God for his attributes of omniscience and omnipresence. Notice what he states in 139:7,8 with references to heaven and hell. The word "heaven" here is in the plural (from the Hebrew shamayim), "im" making the reference plural and so should read "If I ascend up into the heavens.", i.e., passed the first heaven (our atmosphere), passed the second heaven (the planets), and on to the third heaven David attests to the fact that there is nowhere anyone can go to get away from the presence of God. The omnipresence of God is not germane here, the salient point being that of directionality. David states that if he goes the other direction from the surface of the earth, God is still there, even in the center of the earth where Sheol is located. Now the statement of David made that we are interested in, is this, "If I make my bed in Hell..." No way is David considering making his bed in a place of torment, for David was a saved man, a "man after God's own heart," and if he was thinking deeper than the basic facts he would have been thinking of making his bed in the Paradise side of Sheol.

The Hebrew Sheol and Greek Gehenna being references to the same place can logically be infered from a reading out of Deuteronomy:

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. - 32:22
The fires of Gehenna burned physically and literally continuously for as long as the flames were provided fuel. This is just as true figuratively of Gehenna within Sheol, that the flames of Gehenna burn with everlasting, eternal torment. This is a logical inference based on a reading of the burning bush in Moses' day: "the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed." Now let us consider this in conjunction with what Scripture tells us about Gehenna, i.e. Isa 30:33. The Lord being eternal, there is no logical reason to conclude that the figurative fires of Gehenna in Sheol will die, or that whatever fuel therein will be consumed within any period of time concievable (in that the Lord is outside of time itself). Nevertheless, and that notwithstanding, there is a definite time of Judgement. Dan 12:2 refers to a resurrection of those that "sleep in the dust of the earth." This passage makes explicit reference to resurrection from the "grave", i.e., physical reconstitution. Until then, the spirit of the people referred to in this passage exist in the compartments torment or paradise of Sheol. The ultimate fate of those people in the Sheol compartment of torment should be abundantly clear: a place of "shame and everlasting contempt." To hold in comtempt means "to abhor, to despise, to detest." Not only will these individuals be held in contempt, but they will also hold in contempt, and despise, all things (including themselves). Sinners will take all their shame with them to their final Hell, and they will relive their shame moment after moment after moment. There is nothing but the depths of depression in Hell. That this is the final judgement is absolutely clear based on a reading of Dan 12:1, and Isa 66:22-24.

To consider that physically existing in the Gehenna of Sheol, as it is understood to have literaly existed during the time Jerusalem prior to its destruction in A.D. 70, doesn't carry any connotations of torment for its inhabitants staggers incredulity. That strikes me as being the epitome of depravity; I would have no clue then what actually would connotate "torment". Everything about Gehenna, both literal and figurative intimates a most vile, reprehensible and abominable place of existance. To interpret the Gehenna of Sheol as that of everlasting destruction in a state of oblivion makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. This would be analogous to a convicted murderer being sentanced to death, anesthatized to oblivion, their body ruthlessly mutilated, and tortured, and subjected to all sorts of depravities, then brought to conciousness with adrenalin or amphetamine or something, and then shot in the head. What sort of depraved righteousness or insane justice would that be?

Any other intimation would fly in the face of the meaning of immortality of the soul, albeit there being no authoritative systematic definition of "soul" that is embraced by Judaism (although various descriptions of the soul exist in classical rabbinic literature). It can be seen in the account of Rachel's death in Gen 35:18 equating with her soul (nephesh) departing. And the account given in I Kgs 17:21, we see Elijah praying for the return of a widow's boy to life, he entreats, "O LORD my God, I pray you, let this child's nephesh come into him again". From these passages it can be inferred that death meant that something called nephesh became separated from the body, and life could return when this essence returned (and for a time at least nephesh exists even so the corpse is inanimate). In Psa 31:9; Psa 63:1, Mic 6:7 the soul and body are noted as being separate entities. Saadia Gaon explains in Emunoth ve-Deoth 6:3 the classical rabbinic teaching about the soul comprising that part of a person's mind which constitutes physical desire, emotion, and thought. The Kabbalah teaches that the soul has three elements: the nefesh, ru'ah, and neshamah.

Nefesh is the lower or animal part of the soul, linking to instincts and bodily cravings and is found in all humans, and enters the physical body at birth. The Ruach is the "spirit" of man and contains the moral virtues and the ability to distinguish between good and evil (it equates to psyche or ego-personality). The Neshamah is the "higher" soul, and distinguishes man from all other life forms. It relates to the intellect, and allows man to enjoy and benefit from the afterlife. This part of the soul is provided both to Jew and non-Jew alike at birth. According to the Zohar, after death nefesh disintegrates, ruach is sent to a sort of intermediate zone where it is submitted to purification and enters in "temporary paradise", while neshamah returns to the source, the world of Platonic ideas, where it enjoys "the kiss of the beloved". After resurrection, ruach and neshamah are re-united in a permanently transmuted state of being.

Admittedly the foregoing is a weak argument, even when taking into account by extension the Kabbalistic doctrine (dogma?) concerning the survivability (for a time) of at least some aspect of the soul. Nevertheless, and that notwithstanding scrutiny, the crux of the matter rests entirely upon a fundamental principle that the creation of man itself inherently testifies to the eternal life of the soul. The Torah declares unequivocally, "And the Almighty formed the man of dust from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the SOUL of life" (Gen 2:7). On this verse, the Zohar states unequivoclly that "one who blows, blows from within himself," indicating that the soul is actually part of God's essence. Since God's essence is completely spiritual and non-physical, it is impossible that the soul should die. The only logical conlclusion to this line of reasoning is that soul annihilation is NOT eisegetical, but exegetical.

The Lord God Jehovah, God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is infinitely Holy, infinitely righteous, and demands infite obediance. Transgressions against His Holy Law demands infinite punishment according to His infinite Justice. Being that God is infinite and eternal, then infinite justice must also be eternal, in that if soul annihilation was even plausible, then infinite punishment could not be meted out. Attonment for a crime must be provided for by the offending party to the offended party (and being a matter of justice om the strictest sense, is never finished). This is absoluely not something that Man can do for himself. The Lord knows this, and knew this before the beginning of time, and so with infinite intelligence schemed a plan for infinite salvation through infinite grace. Keep in mind that the issues are not only legal, but that of commercial interests. Genesis 15 speaks of a certain incident that occured that is utterly germane to my point. God and Abraham engaged in a contract with respect to an heir. God told Abraham what His part of the contract would be in v5. In accordance to Jewish Law, when a contract was made between two parties, a ritual had to be conducted by both parties signifying their unique, joint and several obligations within the contract. The ritual specified that there had to be a sacrifice. This entailed digging a trench, both sides of the trench were lined with a sacrifice provided by the provider party in the contract, and then the receipient of the contract would walk through the blood that pooled in the trench. You read Genesis 15, and you ascertain just who fullfilled what part of the contract ritual.

The foreging be as it may, nothwithstanding, and nevertheless, eternity is, admittedly, an extremely difficult concept to grasp. It seems to me that very few Christians really believe in the doctrine of eternal fires of hell, no matter how much they profess to do so. The idea of unending, conscious pain, whether physical or mental, is beyond anyone’s dark imagination or worst nightmares. Christians commonly believe that hell is a place of fire, torture and shrieks, yet, when was the last time any of us tearfully went to an unsaved person that we care about and begged them to ‘repent and believe’? The thought of hell should stir every single one of us into a state of near panic for the welfare of our unsaved relatives, friends and acquaintances, yet most of us do not blink an eye at the idea of some of our loved ones going there...

I beg all of those who hold the Scriptures to be the verbal plenary inspired Word of God, and yet still await the Messiah to definitively answer: who is the prophet referring to in Isaiah 52:13-53:12? Is he referring to himself, a prophet that came before him, or another yet to come? I implore you to most wholeheartedly and sincerly in this matter, for the destiny of your everlasting soul utterly depends upon it. I tell you this with utmost seriousness, there's nothing that you can do for yourself respecting this matter. Gen 15:6 is explictely clear about the matter, i.e. in this verse we see that neither circumcision nor adherence to The Law had any part whatsover in Abraham's righteousness. We see Jesus making a similar correlation to Nicodemus in Jn 3:14 (with respect to the plight of the Israelites in Num 21:4-9).

Shalom.

145 posted on 03/02/2007 8:02:13 PM PST by raygun (Forget 'bout throwing nukes (rock) at the 2028 asteroid, eveyrbody knows only paper beats rock.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson