Yes, I do. You see, I've actually read Tanakh (in the original Hebrew, btw). Show me a single source from JEWISH writings (including Tanakh and Talmud) that the Passover sacrifice was for "sin" or that sacrifices redeemed for intentional sins. You won't find them. The idea that Judaism believed or believes that sacrifices "save" from sin is a Christian fantasy manufactured to support the idea that a guy who died and accomplished nothing (i.e. didn't kick out the Romans, bring back the exiles, bring Jews back to Torah, etc.) was somehow the "Messiah."
I never said the passover was a sacrifice for sin. I said you were mistaken about what Christians believe, and you demonstrated that in spades when you say
a guy who died and accomplished nothing
That statement leaves me absolutely speechless. I cannot believe that someone could be so ignorant of secular history, if nothing else.
Actually there's a bit of a disconnect here regarding the Passover and the atonement for sin.
"guy who died and accomplished nothing (i.e. didn't kick out the Romans, bring back the exiles, bring Jews back to Torah, etc."
He did die, He did rise again and will come back a second time.
That's the problem with the Jewish interpretation, Jesus wasn't going to be an earthly ruler and that's what they were looking for.
I am curious about what you said about the tanakh ...are you saying there is no such thing as a sin offering or a guilt offering in your scriptures? The story of the scapegoat is not in there...is the Christian Bible so far off the mark ...even though it was translated from the hebrew manuscripts...? There is no talk of sin offerings in Exodus? Didn't the Lord spend an awful amount of time in the book of Numbers telling the Hebrews how and what to sacrifice...and why did the priest go into the holy of holies once a year? Wasn't that to make atonement for the sins of Israel? Didn't that include the sacrifice of animals?
The tanakh does not have this in it??
Moses said to Aaron, "Come to the altar and sacrifice your sin offering and your burnt offering and make atonement for yourself and the people; sacrifice the offering that is for the people and make atonement for them, as the LORD has commanded."Leviticus 9:7
or this?
"Then the priest is to sacrifice the sin offering and make atonement for the one to be cleansed from his uncleanness. After that, the priest shall slaughter the burnt offering. Leviticus 14:9
Not being able to read Hebrew...I am curious as to how these scriptures relate to the Hebrew text?
and I am also curious as to wheteher you have read the New Testament to see if they line up with anything in your Torah. If you haven't, I think you'd be surprised.
...something that you might want to look at.
http://www.sinhedrin.com/
And I agree with the rest of what you wrote.
Psalm 6
A Prayer in Time of Trouble
1 Don't punish me, LORD, or even correct me
when you are angry!
2 Have pity on me and heal my feeble body.
My bones tremble with fear,
3 and I am in deep distress.
How long will it be?
4 Turn and come to my rescue.
Show your wonderful love and save me, LORD.
5 If I die, I cannot praise you or even remember you.
6 My groaning has worn me out.
At night my bed and pillow are soaked with tears.
7 Sorrow has made my eyes dim, and my sight has failed
because of my enemies.
8 You, LORD, heard my crying,
and those hateful people had better leave me alone.
9 You have answered my prayer and my plea for mercy.
10 My enemies will be ashamed and terrified,
as they quickly run away in complete disgrace.
Psalm 32
The Joy of Forgiveness
1 Our God, you bless everyone
whose sins you forgive and wipe away.
2 You bless them by saying,
"You told me your sins, without trying to hide them,
and now I forgive you."
3 Before I confessed my sins, my bones felt limp,
and I groaned all day long.
4 Night and day your hand weighed heavily on me,
and my strength was gone as in the summer heat.
5 So I confessed my sins and told them all to you.
I said, "I'll tell the LORD each one of my sins."
Then you forgave me and took away my guilt.
Psalm 38
A Prayer in Times of Trouble
1 When you are angry, LORD, please don't punish me
or even correct me.
2 You shot me with your arrows,
and you struck me with your hand.
3 My body hurts all over because of your anger.
Even my bones are in pain,
and my sins 4are so heavy that I am crushed.
5 Because of my foolishness, I am covered with sores
that stink and spread.
6 My body is twisted and bent, and I groan all day long.
7 Fever has my back in flames, and I hurt all over.
8 I am worn out and weak, moaning and in distress.
9 You, LORD, know every one of my deepest desires,
and my noisy groans are no secret to you.
10 My heart is beating fast.
I feel weak all over, and my eyes are red.
11 Because of my sickness,
no friends or neighbors will come near me.
12 All who want me dead set traps to catch me,
and those who want to harm and destroy me
plan and plot all day.
13 I am not able to hear or speak a word;
14 I am completely deaf and can't make a sound.
15 I trust you, LORD God, and you will do something.
16 I said, "Don't let them laugh or brag because I slip."
17 I am about to collapse from constant pain.
18 I told you my sins, and I am sorry for them.
19 Many deadly and powerful enemies hate me,
20 and they repay evil for good because I try to do right.
21 You are the LORD God!
Stay nearby and don't desert me.
22 You are the one who saves me. Please hurry and help.
Psalm 51
A Prayer for Forgiveness
1 You are kind, God! Please have pity on me.
You are always merciful! Please wipe away my sins.
2 Wash me clean from all of my sin and guilt.
3 I know about my sins,
and I cannot forget my terrible guilt.
4 You are really the one I have sinned against;
I have disobeyed you and have done wrong.
So it is right and fair for you
to correct and punish me.
5 I have sinned and done wrong since the day I was born.
6 But you want complete honesty,
so teach me true wisdom.
7 Wash me with hyssopa
until I am clean and whiter than snow.
8 Let me be happy and joyful!
You crushed my bones, now let them celebrate.
9 Turn your eyes from my sin and cover my guilt.
10 Create pure thoughts in me
and make me faithful again.
11 Don't chase me away from you
or take your Holy Spirit away from me.
12 Make me as happy as you did when you saved me;
make me want to obey!
13 I will teach sinners your Law,
and they will return to you.
14 Keep me from any deadly sin. Only you can save me!
Then I will shout and sing about your power to save.
15 Help me to speak, and I will praise you, LORD.
16 Offerings and sacrifices are not what you want.
17 The way to please you
is to feel sorrow deep in our hearts.
This is the kind of sacrifice you won't refuse.
18 Please be willing, LORD, to help the city of Zion
and to rebuild its walls.
19 Then you will be pleased with the proper sacrifices,
and we will offer bulls on your altar once again.
Psalm 102
A Prayer in Time of Trouble
1 I pray to you, LORD! Please listen.
2 Don't hide from me in my time of trouble.
Pay attention to my prayer and quickly give an answer.
3 My days disappear like smoke,
and my bones are burning as though in a furnace.
4 I am wasting away like grass, and my appetite is gone.
5 My groaning never stops,
and my bones can be seen through my skin.
6 I am like a lonely owl in the desert
7 or a restless sparrow alone on a roof.
8 My enemies insult me all day,
and they use my name for a curse word.
9 Instead of food, I have ashes to eat and tears to drink,
10 because you are furious and have thrown me aside.
11 My life fades like a shadow at the end of day
and withers like grass.
12 Our LORD, you are King forever
and will always be famous.
13 You will show pity to Zion because the time has come.
14 We, your servants, love each stone in the city,
and we are sad to see them lying in the dirt.
15 Our LORD, the nations will honor you,
and all kings on earth will praise your glory.
16 You will rebuild the city of Zion.
Your glory will be seen,
17 and the prayers of the homeless will be answered.
18 Future generations must also praise the LORD,
so write this for them:
19 "From his holy temple,
the LORD looked down at the earth.
20 He listened to the groans of prisoners,
and he rescued everyone who was doomed to die."
21 All Jerusalem should praise you, our LORD,
22 when people from every nation meet to worship you.
23 I should still be strong,
but you, LORD, have made an old person of me.
24 You will live forever! Years mean nothing to you.
Don't cut my life in half!
25 In the beginning, LORD, you laid the earth's foundation
and created the heavens.
26 They will all disappear and wear out like clothes.
You change them, as you would a coat,
but you last forever.
27 You are always the same. Years cannot change you.
28 Every generation of those who serve you
will live in your presence.
Psalm 130
Trusting the LORD in Times of Trouble
1 From a sea of troubles I call out to you, LORD.
2 Won't you please listen as I beg for mercy?
3 If you kept record of our sins, no one could last long.
4 But you forgive us, and so we will worship you.
5 With all my heart, I am waiting, LORD, for you!
I trust your promises.
6 I wait for you more eagerly
than a soldier on guard duty waits for the dawn.
Yes, I wait more eagerly
than a soldier on guard duty waits for the dawn.
7 Israel, trust the LORD! He is always merciful,
and he has the power to save you.
8 Israel, the LORD will save you from all of your sins.
Psalm 143
A Prayer in Time of Danger
1 Listen, LORD, as I pray!
You are faithful and honest and will answer my prayer.
2 I am your servant. Don't try me in your court,
because no one is innocent by your standards.
3 My enemies are chasing me, crushing me in the ground.
I am in total darkness, like someone long dead.
4 I have given up all hope, and I feel numb all over.
5 I remember to think about the many things
you did in years gone by.
6 Then I lift my hands in prayer, because my soul is a desert,
thirsty for water from you.
7 Please hurry, LORD, and answer my prayer.
I feel hopeless.
Don't turn away and leave me here to die.
8 Each morning let me learn more about your love
because I trust you.
I come to you in prayer, asking for your guidance.
9 Please rescue me from my enemies, LORD!
I come to you for safety.a
10 You are my God. Show me what you want me to do,
and let your gentle Spirit lead me in the right path.
11 Be true to your name, LORD, and keep my life safe.
Use your saving power to protect me from trouble.
12 I am your servant.
Show how much you love me by destroying my enemies.
You might want to read this in particular.
Semicha and Sanhedrin Controversies of the 16th and 21st Centuries
Rabbi Yirmiyohu Kaganoff
(origninally in Yated, USA, 24JUN05)
http://www.sinhedrin.com/files/history/semicha_sanhedrin_controversies.html
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:5-6
Who is this talking about if not the Messiah?
>>(i.e. didn't kick out the Romans, bring back the exiles, bring Jews back to Torah, etc.) was somehow the "Messiah."
After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
Daniel 9:26
Just as it was prophesied.
You're right the article is very vague. I don't think the Rabbi is talking about the paschal lamb, rather a rebuilding of the Temple. Can't the paschal lamb be sacrificed anywhere in Jerusalem?
The original passover lamb (lambs) caused the Angel of Death to pass over those households marked with the blood of the lamb.
Jesus is the passover lamb. His blood saves souls from the death of eternal separation from God.
The death of the soul is passed over due to his sacrifice.
You are of course 100% correct but, as I have explained in an earlier response, the people you are arguing with (who are well-meaning) simply will not listen to you. They know that 'Adam was created as perfect as G-d Himself, and that G-d can't handle imperfection of any kind without damning it. When Adam sinned, he thus damned all future generations of mankind for imperfection. It doesn't matter that everyone is different and some people are more sinful than others and some are less sinful than others. G-d cannot individually reward/punish sins and good deeds because He can't handle the imperfection Adam's sin introduced into humanity. Sin is essentially a disease, individual sins are merely the symptoms. Mother Teresa and Joseph Stalin both deserve the identical same eternal damnation because they both had the same disease--the fact that one had more symptoms than another means nothing.
Because they begin their reading of the TaNa"KH with a "new testament" perspective they interpret the entire Torah as a combination stop-gap and prophecy of the coming "messiah" who was vicariously damned in the place of every single human being who would ever live, thus allowing G-d to maintain His Holiness (which demanded eternal damnation for the imperfection introduced by sin) while showing mercy to his creatures.
It is important to remember that this view represents only Fundamentalist Protestantism, not Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy. To a Fundamentalist Protestant, both Catholicism and Orthodoxy are barren legal systems of no merit or use (they merely replace HaShem with (lehavdil!) J*sus as the object of their prayers for mercy). This means that Fundamentalist Protestantism cannot be genuine chr*stianity because it has no roots or connections to the ancient chr*stian past. It also means that Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are hypocritical because they basically take the same attitude as Judaism, except they replace the Holy Torah with a "new law" and HaShem with (lehavdil!) J*sus.
Some people who argue with Protestants make the great mistake of sounding as if they are promoting the idea that man is not sinful, or that there is nothing wrong with us. The good Protestant, obviously, knows that there is very much wrong with him, and thus is confirmed even more in his erroneous beliefs. It is not that there isn't anything wrong with us (Adam's sin marred the entire creation, not merely human nature), but this does not mean that G-d can only react to this by damning someone (either the victim or the scapegoat). Nothing G-d created shares His Holiness or perfection. Indeed, each year on Ro'sh HaShanah G-d judges all created things, including even the Heavenly bodies, because they are not perfect, but this doesn't mean they have to be condemned to eternal damnation. Before man had even been created the earth already sinned by disobeying G-d and bringing forth "`etz `oseh peri instead of `etz peri `oseh peri (where was Satan while this was going on?), yet while it was punished, that doesn't mean the earth had to be eternally damned! Fundamentalist Protestants also don't seem to understand that evil, rather than the creation of a fallen and rebellious angel, was mysteriously a part of G-d's plan all along (He created both Satan and the evil inclination).
In order to break out of this mentality the chr*stian must read the TaNa"KH without any chr*stian preconceptions, which for some people is very hard. So by all means continue to defend the Torah, but please also understand why it is so difficult for them to understand.
I once believed exactly as they do, and probably were it not for my own unique experiences I'd still believe it.