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Thinking Hard About Voting For Rudy Guiliani
The Bulletin ^ | Feb. 22, 2007 | Maggie Gallagher

Posted on 02/23/2007 7:05:51 PM PST by FairOpinion

I've never voted for Rudy Giuliani in my life. But I'm thinking hard about it now.

In both cases, I surprise myself.

The rest of America may know Rudy as "America's Mayor" for his ceremonial performance post-9/11, but for New Yorkers who lived through the Dinkins years, Rudy Giuliani is more than a guy who stands tall when the skyscrapers fall. By the late '90s, people were beginning to say that New York City was ungovernable: Remember the court-driven interest group spending, the disorder, the bums taking over the parks and the playgrounds and the street corners, spiraling welfare costs, the crime, the small business disaster, the high taxes, rent control, the South Bronx? New York was a disaster area, a poster child for what liberalism hath wrought.

The glittering cosmopolitan New York City we now live in, the one seemingly every college student in America dreams about moving to, is largely Rudy's gift, forged in the face of intense, daily, nasty invective from those who at the time insisted that to demand order and civility in a large city was to be a fascist.

Even Rudy's 9/11 performance tends to be misdescribed. It was not that he "stood tall" or didn't emotionally collapse. George Bush came to New York City and made graceful speeches about how we will rebuild the hole in the ground that still remains. What stood out for us in that dark time was not that the mayor of New York insisted we would triumph over this adversity, but that he didn't try to spin us about how unimaginably bad this sort of adversity was. He didn't try to soft-pedal the uncertainty, the chaos, the suffering the city was going through, and that gave us the confidence to believe that reality, terrible as it was, could in fact be faced.

I never voted for Rudy when I lived in New York City for one simple reason: abortion. I don't look for purity in politicians, just for some small pro-life reason to vote for a guy: Medicaid funding, parental notification, partial birth abortion. Throw me the slightest lifeline, otherwise I assume he just doesn't want the vote of people like me. Rudy never did. So I never gave him my vote. And of course it doesn't help now to recall the way Rudy treated his second wife, nor do I particularly want to imagine the third Mrs. Giuliani as Laura Bush's successor.

So I could have sworn, even a few months ago, that I'd never vote for Rudy Giuliani, in spite of my deep respect for his considerable achievements as mayor. So why would I even think of changing my mind? Two things: national security, and Hillary Clinton's Supreme Court appointments.

When I ask myself, who of all the candidates in both parties do I most trust to keep me and my children safe? The answer is instantaneous, deeper than the level any particular policy debate can go: Rudy Giuliani. And when I look ahead on social issues like gay marriage, the greatest threat I see is that the Supreme Court with two or more appointments from Hillary Clinton, will decide that our Founding Fathers, in their wisdom, created a national constitutional right to whatever social liberals have decided is the latest civil rights battle. It's hard to see a state that George Bush won in which Rudy Giuliani will not beat Hillary Clinton. And he will put a whole slew of new blue states into play: Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, to name just three. (The latest Quinnipiac poll shows Giuliani in a dead heat with Clinton in Connecticut.) Which puts people like me, who care very deeply about marriage and life issues, in the position of thinking hard about Rudy.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: abortteamrudy; clinton; democratrudy; electionpresident; elections; fraudiani; giuliani; gungrabber; hillary; homosexualagenda; judges; judiciary; partysplitter; perverts; rudy; willtapdance4votes
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To: sockmonkey
I see so little difference in the two of them, I would probably stay home on election day.

So the war on terror is not important enough for you? Taxes are not important for you? Limited government, government regulation, tough-on crime judges?
41 posted on 02/23/2007 7:32:48 PM PST by LtdGovt ("Where government moves in, community retreats and civil society disintegrates" -Janice Rogers Brown)
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To: FairOpinion
Why don't YOU prove your insinuation that every one was a Democrat which I do NOT believe.

No, there were at least two. That's the total that Giuliani people have been able to provide evidence for to date.

42 posted on 02/23/2007 7:33:07 PM PST by EternalVigilance (“Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair; the rest is in the hands of God.”)
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To: EternalVigilance
All but two, from the evidence that I've been able to glean out of Giuliani's supporters.

Sure. But since you asked someone to name five Republicans, why don't you name five Democrats or Independents?
43 posted on 02/23/2007 7:33:42 PM PST by LtdGovt ("Where government moves in, community retreats and civil society disintegrates" -Janice Rogers Brown)
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To: FairOpinion
So whom do you think ANY of the Democrats will appoint to the Supreme Court?!

Oh, I don't know, probably some far left ideologue like former New York Governor Mario Cuomo who has lusted for a seat on the SCOTUS forever, you remember him don't you?

He's the guy that Rudy decided to support for Governor when he (Rudy) stabbed the GOP candidate (George Pataki) in the back, and now thinks that all Republicans should not only support him, but vote for him too.

I'll bet Mario Cuomo will, after all: kindred spirits and all that, eh?
44 posted on 02/23/2007 7:34:20 PM PST by mkjessup (If Reagan were still with us, he'd ask us to "win one more for the Gipper, vote for Duncan Hunter!")
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To: EternalVigilance

WE don't need to prove anything.

YOU need to prove YOUR assetion.

Please don't post on the Rudy threads, until you researched every single judge Rudy nominated, then post it and get back to us.


45 posted on 02/23/2007 7:34:33 PM PST by FairOpinion (Tell Congress: Work for Victory in Iraq. Stop Hillary. Go to: http://www.TheVanguard.org)
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To: spikeytx86

Not to worry, that's what libs do - namecall. It's take all their smarts to get that far, also.


46 posted on 02/23/2007 7:36:38 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: mkjessup
He's the guy that Rudy decided to support for Governor when he (Rudy) stabbed the GOP candidate (George Pataki) in the back, and now thinks that all Republicans should not only support him, but vote for him too.

Well, good for him. Pataki stabbed the state GOP in the back, destroyed the state GOP, spent more than a Democrat could have dreamed about. He was a disaster.
47 posted on 02/23/2007 7:37:06 PM PST by LtdGovt ("Where government moves in, community retreats and civil society disintegrates" -Janice Rogers Brown)
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To: FreeInWV; Reagan Man; Fierce Allegiance; EternalVigilance; B Knotts; jmc813; Kimberly GG; Sun; ...
On President Bill Clinton: Shortly before his last-minute endorsement of Bob Dole in the 1996 presidential election, Giuliani told the Post's Jack Newfield that "most of Clinton's policies are very similar to most of mine." -Rudy! An Investigative Biography of Rudolph Giuliani, Wayne Barrett.



The Real Rudy Giuliani:

From Human Events:

Rudy's Strong Pro-Abortion Stance

As these comments from a 1989 conversation with Phil Donahue show, Rudy Giuliani is staunchly in favor of abortion:

"I've said that I'll uphold a woman's right of choice, that I will fund abortion so that a poor woman is not deprived of a right that others can exercise, and that I would oppose going back to a day in which abortions were illegal.

I do that in spite of my own personal reservations. I have a daughter now; if a close relative or a daughter were pregnant, I would give my personal advice, my religious and moral views ...

Donahue: Which would be to continue the pregnancy.

Giuliani: Which would be that I would help her with taking care of the baby. But if the ultimate choice of the woman - my daughter or any other woman - would be that in this particular circumstance [if she had] to have an abortion, I'd support that. I'd give my daughter the money for it."

Worse yet, Giuliani even supports partial birth abortion:

"I'm pro-choice. I'm pro-gay rights,Giuliani said. He was then asked whether he supports a ban on what critics call partial-birth abortions. "No, I have not supported that, and I don't see my position on that changing," he responded." -- CNN.com, "Inside Politics" Dec 2, 1999

It's bad enough that Rudy is so adamantly pro-abortion, but consider what that could mean when it comes time to select Supreme Court Justices. Does the description of Giuliani that you've just read make you think he's going to select an originalist like Clarence Thomas, who would vote to overturn Roe v. Wade -- or does it make you think he would prefer justices like Sandra Day O'Connor and Anthony Kennedy who'd leave Roe v. Wade in place?

Rudy's abortion stance is bad news for conservatives who are pro-life or who are concerned about getting originalist judges on the Supreme Court.

An Anti-Second Amendment Candidate

In the last couple of election cycles, 2nd Amendment issues have moved to the back burner mainly because even Democratic candidates have learned that being tagged with the "gun grabber" label is political poison.

Unfortunately, Rudy Giuliani is a proponent of gun control who supported the Brady Bill and the Assault Weapon Ban.

Do Republicans really want to abandon their strong 2nd Amendment stance by selecting a pro-gun control nominee?

Soft on Gay Marriage

Other than tax cuts, the biggest domestic issue of the 2004 election was President Bush's support of a Constitutional Amendment to define marriage as being between a man and a woman. Unfortunately, Rudy Giuliani has taken a "Kerryesque" position on gay marriage.

Although Rudy, like John Kerry, has said that marriage should remain between a man and a woman, he also supports civil unions, "marched in gay-pride parades" ...dressed up in drag on national television for a skit on Saturday Night Live (and moved in with a) wealthy gay couple" after his divorce. He also very vocally opposed running on a gay marriage amendment:

His thoughts on the gay-marriage amendment? "I don't think you should run a campaign on this issue," he told the Daily News earlier this month. "I think it would be a mistake for anybody to run a campaign on it -- the Democrats, the president, or anybody else."

Here's more from the New York Daily News:

"Rudy Giuliani came out yesterday against President Bush's call for a ban on gay marriage.

The former mayor, who Vice President Cheney joked the other night is after his job, vigorously defended the President on his post-9/11 leadership but made clear he disagrees with Bush's proposal to rewrite the Constitution to outlaw gays and lesbians from tying the knot.

"I don't think it's ripe for decision at this point," he said on NBC's "Meet the Press."

"I certainly wouldn't support [a ban] at this time," added Giuliani..."

Although Rudy may grudgingly say he doesn't support gay marriage (and it would be political suicide for him to do otherwise), where he really stands on the issue is an open question.

Pro-Illegal Immigration

As Tom Bevan of RealClearPolitics has pointed out, Rudy is an adherent of the same approach to illegal immigration that John McCain, Ted Kennedy, George Bush, and Harry Reid have championed:

"While McCain has taken heat for his support of comprehensive immigration reform, Rudy is every bit as pro-immigration as McCain - if not more so. On the O'Reilly Factor last week Giuliani argued for a "practical approach" to immigration and cited his efforts as Mayor of New York City to "regularize" illegal immigrants by providing them with access to city services like public education to "make their lives reasonable." Giuliani did say that "a tremendous amount of money should be put into the physical security" needed to stop the flow of illegal immigrants coming across the border, but his overall position on immigration is essentially indistinguishable from McCain's."

That's bad enough. But, as Michelle Malkin has revealed, under Giuliani, New York was an illegal alien sanctuary and "America's Mayor" actually sued the federal government in an effort to keep New York City employees from having to cooperate with the INS:

"When Congress enacted immigration reform laws that forbade local governments from barring employees from cooperating with the INS, Mayor Rudy Giuliani filed suit against the feds in 1997. He was rebuffed by two lower courts, which ruled that the sanctuary order amounted to special treatment for illegal aliens and were nothing more than an unlawful effort to flaunt federal enforcement efforts against illegal aliens. In January 2000, the Supreme Court rejected his appeal, but Giuliani vowed to ignore the law."

If you agree with the way that Nancy Pelosi and Company deal with illegal immigration, then you'll find the way that Rudy Giuliani tackles the issue to be right down your alley.

A More Charismatic Version of Arlen Specter

Rudy Giuliani may have many fine qualities, but he is not a conservative, nor has he always been a loyal Republican.

For example, back in the mid-nineties, when he was actually running New York City, Rudy could have fairly been said to have governed as a moderate at best and to the left-of-center at worst:

"The National Journal’s rating system put him at 56 percent conservative and 44 percent liberal on economic issues in 1996 and assessed him as liberal by 59 to 40 percent in looking at his social issues votes."

The New York Observer also had a very interesting selection of quotes from and about Rudy over the years that may give his conservative supporters more than a little pause. Here are a few of those quotations:

Some ask, How can the Liberal Party support a candidate who disagrees with the Liberal Party position on so many gut issues? But when the Liberal Party Policy Committee reviewed a list of key social issues of deep concern to progressive New Yorkers, we found that Rudy Giuliani agreed with the Liberal Party's stance on a majority of such issues. He agreed with the Liberal Party's views on affirmative action, gay rights, gun control, school prayer and tuition tax credits. As Mayor, Rudy Giuliani would uphold the Constitutional and legal rights to abortion. -- N.Y.S. Liberal Party Endorsement Statement of R. Giuliani for Mayor of New York City April 8, 1989

Mr. Rockefeller represented "a tradition in the Republican Party I've worked hard to re-kindle - the Rockefeller, Javits, Lefkowitz tradition." -- Rudy Giuliani, New York Times, July 9, 1992

What kind of Republican? Is [Giuliani], for instance, a Reagan Republican? [Giuliani] pauses before answering: "I'm a Republican." -- Village Voice, January 24, 1989

"Shortly before his last-minute endorsement of Bob Dole in the 1996 presidential election, [Giuliani] told the Post's Jack Newfield that "most of Clinton's policies are very similar to most of mine." The Daily News quoted [Giuliani] as saying that March: "Whether you talk about President Clinton, Senator Dole.... The country would be in very good hands in the hands of any of that group."

Revealing at one point that he was "open" to the idea of endorsing Clinton, he explained: "When I ran for mayor both times, '89 and '93, I promised people that I would be, if not bipartisan, at least open to the possibility of supporting Democrats." -- Rudy - An Investigative Biography of Rudolph Giuliani, Wayne Barrett, Page 459

"From my point of view as the mayor of New York City, the question that I have to ask is, 'Who has the best chance in the next four years of successfully fighting for our interest? Who understands them, and who will make the best case for it?' Our future, our destiny is not a matter of chance. It's a matter of choice. My choice is Mario Cuomo." -- Rudy Giuliani: Emperor of the City, Andrew Kirtzman, Page 133

"[Quite] frankly, you have to understand the fact that Rudy Giuliani was a McGovern Democrat, he was endorsed by the Liberal Party when he ran for Mayor. In his heart, he's a Democrat. He's paraded all over this country with Bill Clinton and, in fact, he's very comfortable with Mario Cuomo. But what Rudy Giuliani wants is to be bailed out in the city, in the mess he's in, and everybody understands very clearly in politics that they struck a deal, that Mario's going to continue to be the big spender, save Rudy the options of raising taxes by pouring money statewide into the City of New York and bailing it out. Quite frankly, I predict that he will join the Democratic Party." -- Interview with Michael Long, Chairman N.Y.S., Conservative Party, CNN Crossfire, October 25, 1994

Does this really sound like the sort of candidate we want as a standard bearer for the Republican Party?

He Can't Keep His Pants Up

There has only been one man who has ever made it to the White House after being divorced and that was Ronald Reagan, who had been married to Nancy for more than 25 years before his campaign in 1980. Rudy, on the other hand, is on his third wife.

Furthermore, his second divorce from Donna Hanover was extremely ugly. Hanover accused Rudy of "open and notorious adultery." She also claimed Rudy had an affair with a staffer, Christyne Lategano-Nicholas, which both Giuliani and Lategano-Nicholas denied. However, Rudy has acknowledged that he started seeing his current wife, Judith Nathan, before his divorce from Hanover was finalized in 2002.

Given how recent this divorce was, Rudy's adultery, and the fact that he married, "the other woman," the press can be expected to cover Rudy's marriage to Hanover exhaustively if he gets the nomination and needless to say, Rudy, quite deservedly, will not come off very well.

Does He Have The Judgment To Be President?

As you've just seen, Rudy hasn't necessarily made the best decisions in his personal life. Unfortunately, the Bernard Kerik incident shows that Giuliani's poor judgment can spill over into political matters as well.

Rudy recommended his friend and business partner, Bernard Kerik, for the position of Homeland Security Secretary and the Bush administration, perhaps because Rudy vouched for him, didn't do a very thorough job of vetting him.

Soon after Kerik's nomination became public, allegations surfaced that Kerik was having two simultaneous affairs, had ties to a construction company "linked to the mob," and had an illegal alien nanny whose taxes hadn't been paid. Under fire from the press, Kerik withdrew his name from consideration for the Homeland Security position and the Bush administration was left with egg on its face for putting up such a scandal ridden nominee.

While the whole debacle was embarrassing for the Bush Administration, it raised even more serious questions about Rudy. After all, if Bernard Kerik is the sort of person Rudy sees as an appropriate friend, business partner, and nominee to run the Homeland Security Department, it makes you wonder what kind of people he is surrounding himself with on a day to day basis.

How Electable Is Rudy Giuliani Really?

One of the biggest selling points for Rudy Giuliani is supposed to be that he's "electable" because a lot of independents and Democrats will vote for him. The problem with that sort of thinking is that if he becomes the Republican nominee, the very liberal mainstream media will spend nine months relentlessly savaging him in an effort to help the Democrats. Because of that, Giuliani's sky high polling numbers with non-Republicans are 100% guaranteed to drop significantly before election time rolls around in 2008.

That is not necessarily a problem; after all the mainstream media is always against the Republican nominee, if -- and this is a big "if" -- the GOP nominee has strong support from the Republican base.

The big problem Rudy has is that he isn't going to be able to generate that kind of support. For one thing, as a candidate, he offers almost nothing to social conservatives, without whom a victory for George Bush in 2004 wouldn't have been possible. If the choice in 2008 comes down to a Democrat and a pro-abortion, soft on gay marriage, left-of-center candidate on social issues -- like Rudy -- you can be sure that millions of "moral values voters" will simply stay home and cost the GOP the election.

The other issue is in the South. George Bush swept every Southern state in 2000 and 2004, which is quite an impressive feat when you consider that the Democrats had Southerner Al Gore at the top of the ticket in 2000 and John Edwards as the veep in 2004. Unfortunately, a pro-abortion, soft on gay marriage, pro-gun control RINO from New York City just isn't going to be able to repeat that performance. Even against a carpetbagger like Hillary Clinton, it's entirely likely that you'll see at least 2 or 3 states in the South turn from red to blue if Rudy Giuliani is the nominee.

Also, the reason why George Bush's approval numbers have been mired in the high thirties/low forties of late is because he has lost a significant amount of Republican support, primarily because his domestic policies aren't considered conservative enough. Since that's the case, running a candidate who is several steps to Bush's left on domestic policy certainly doesn't seem like a great way to unite the base again.

Conclusion

Despite all of his charisma and the wonderful leadership he showed after 9/11, Rudy Giuliani is not a Reagan Republican. To the contrary, Giuliani is another Christie Todd Whitman, another Arlen Specter, another Olympia Snowe. He's a throwback to the "bad old days" before Reagan, when the GOP was run by moderate Country Club Republicans who considered conservatives to be extremists. Trying to revive that failed strategy again is likely to lead to a Democratic President in 2008 and numerous setbacks for the Republican Party.

48 posted on 02/23/2007 7:37:35 PM PST by NapkinUser (Free Ramos and Compean! Disbarment for the Nifong-wannabe Johnny Sutton.)
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To: FairOpinion
Sorry, Schwarzeneggar flack. I'll post here if I want to.

Now, how about you provide some back up to Giuliani's in-credible, ludicrous, claims that he'll appoint judges who will protect us from leftist politicians like himself?

"Most of Clinton's policies are very similar to most of mine." - Rudy Giuliani

49 posted on 02/23/2007 7:37:49 PM PST by EternalVigilance (“Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair; the rest is in the hands of God.”)
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To: FairOpinion

Hey! The General Election is nearly two years from now. Lot of things will change by then. All this early campaigning is nearly meaningless!


50 posted on 02/23/2007 7:38:10 PM PST by Sen Jack S. Fogbound ( But I like Newt!)
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To: EternalVigilance

I see, Rudy's word is not good enough for you.

What kind of judges do you think Hillary or any Dem candidate will appoint?


51 posted on 02/23/2007 7:39:22 PM PST by FairOpinion (Tell Congress: Work for Victory in Iraq. Stop Hillary. Go to: http://www.TheVanguard.org)
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To: LtdGovt
Well, good for him. Pataki stabbed the state GOP in the back, destroyed the state GOP, spent more than a Democrat could have dreamed about. He was a disaster.

So, you want us to vote for a politician who is even more liberal than him?

"Most of Clinton's policies are very similar to most of mine." - Rudy Giuliani

52 posted on 02/23/2007 7:39:23 PM PST by EternalVigilance (“Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair; the rest is in the hands of God.”)
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To: FairOpinion
Please don't post on the Rudy threads, until you researched every single judge Rudy nominated, then post it and get back to us.

Go suck eggs. This is a conservative website, not a RINO sanctuary.

53 posted on 02/23/2007 7:39:48 PM PST by dirtboy (Duncan Hunter 08)
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To: FairOpinion
I see, Rudy's word is not good enough for you.

Was it good enough for wives one and two?

54 posted on 02/23/2007 7:40:29 PM PST by EternalVigilance (“Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair; the rest is in the hands of God.”)
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To: toddlintown

what's a RINO?


55 posted on 02/23/2007 7:40:32 PM PST by onyx eyes (Nothing can hurt you that is not real.)
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To: Sen Jack S. Fogbound

With the front loading of the Primaries, this whole thing will be over with by this time next year. A year to campaign is not unheard of.


56 posted on 02/23/2007 7:41:31 PM PST by spikeytx86 (Pray for Democrats for they have been brainwashed by their fruity little club.)
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To: onyx eyes

Republican In Name Only, and apparently I...I...I... am one (resumes uncontrollable sobbing)


57 posted on 02/23/2007 7:42:33 PM PST by spikeytx86 (Pray for Democrats for they have been brainwashed by their fruity little club.)
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To: onyx eyes

RINO?
"Repub In Name Only"


58 posted on 02/23/2007 7:42:56 PM PST by dynachrome ("Where am I? Where am I going? Why am I in a handbasket?")
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To: EternalVigilance

Ms. Hanover is that you?


59 posted on 02/23/2007 7:43:40 PM PST by spikeytx86 (Pray for Democrats for they have been brainwashed by their fruity little club.)
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To: FairOpinion
"Hillary is likewise, not automatically assured of the 'Rat nomination"
So you wouldn't mind President Barack Hussein Obama ?


Don't insult my intelligence. That empty suit is no more going to be the 'Rat nominee next year than Cynthia McKinney.

The fact is, the 'ABHC' (Anybody But Hillary Clinton) movement is already getting underway in the 'Rat Party, and while Obama may be the flavor of the month for encouraging the anti-Clintonites (and they still exist even now) to come forward, Obama will not be the nominee. The best the anti-Hillary crowd can hope for is a deadlocked convention where they end up truly drafting someone who could have a shot at winning.

Call me insane if you like, but 'surprise' potential draftees include:

Al Gore.

Wesley Clark. (don't laugh too soon)

and...(brace yourself)

Colin Powell.

I think there is a strong possibility of Powell crossing party lines and allowing himself to be drafted. If that happened, I think the election would be in the bag for the 'Rats.
60 posted on 02/23/2007 7:43:48 PM PST by mkjessup (If Reagan were still with us, he'd ask us to "win one more for the Gipper, vote for Duncan Hunter!")
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