>>Well... I'm sure President Bush thought that Iraq did have WMD's, so it is impossible for him to have lied.
Phrase that in a logical argument and you have the basis of the 99.999% argument.
1. 99.999% argument.
2. Bush honestly believed the evidence that all the other countries believed as well as the congress of the USA (if a liberal argues this, ask how Bush figured out something Hillary did not and they will cede your point.)
3. Lying takes intent, so you cannot lie by stating something you believe to be true.
Presto, they will agree that President Bush did not lie.
>>If you're going to use a pretext to invade a country (which the liberals say is what happened), then you're not going to use a pretext that will easily be falsified.
This is a particularly silly argument and I have waxed every liberal who has spouted it in my presence.
>>But an opponent might argue the following: President Bush knew that there were no
>>WMDs, but he used them as a pretext anyway, because he expected Iraq to become
>>stable within a few months. Then again, every intelligence agency in the world thought
>>that Saddam did have WMDs.
How about this for a statement “So, bush was smart enough to fool the world into going to war with Iraq, but not smart enough to have WMD’s ready to plant when he won? “ These liberals now have to explain the inconsistency. (Remember, their assumption is going to be that he is barely smart enough to tie his shoes and not get them tied together.)
>>As for Iraq using them on us, I think that scenario would have been implausible.
>>Saddam was not stupid, even though he had illusions of grandeur, he probably knew
>>that using WMDs against the West would result in Iraq being nuked. Therefore, I
>>doubt that he was planning to use WMDs against us. This is further supported by the
>>fact that he did not use WMDs when we invaded Iraq in 2003, that would have been
>>the perfect moment to use them, unless he wasn't stupid enough to do so.
Saddam was stupid, the Commander and chief of the USA was a Texan, not Bill Clinton. He did not believe we would attack him without months more negotiation, then he expected it to be a bill Clinton style “fire all the missiles you have in your inventory”, then go home style war.
>> I think it's possible for a logical person to become frustrated by something that is logical.
My Experience tells me otherwise, if even one person in the debate relentlessly brings the debate back to a logical footing, both sides tend to stay calm.
>>Well... in my experience, some people just assume too many things.
I know what you mean.
>>You have to destroy assumption after assumption, and after four hours (I'm
>>exaggerating), the debate ends and you still haven't addressed the substance of the
>>matter.
I have found that you can take assumptions out in groups if you can find the root of the assumption. As for addressing the substance of the matter, I will speak again in military terms; a good general only fights battles that advance his strategy, and ignores feints. For example, do you have a clear goal for our discussion? I do.
But we are not machines.
Actually we are machines, bio mechanical machines, which not only replicate, repair, but house intelligence far greater than our physical structure should be able to hold. It is one of life’s mysteries that both religion and science try to answer.
>>All of us have unfounded assumptions and associations. We don't evaluate everything
>>on the basis of facts, and known probabilities. Our cognitive biases are part of the
>>human condition.
I have an autistic son, looking back, I was mildly autistic myself. It gives me a clarity of thought that I seldom see in others, in that I have had to study emotion, in order to understand others (I am not saying I have no emotion, only that It has a limited access to my conscious mind) The more I understood emotion in others, the more I understood myself. By studying mankind you learn about your self, by studying God you learn about yourself as well. Thus when we understand the relationship between man and God we will understand why he is interested in us.
>>I disagree with your assertion that assumptions are often emotion-based, certainly no more than opinions are.
Opinions are also often emotion based. (Which is the better team… Who is the best basket ball player, what is your favorite book) often if you dig into these “Opinions” you will find that the person has an emotional connection (my dad used to take me to their games, I used to imagine I was…, My mom and I read… together.) There is nothing wrong with having opinions or assumptions, we should just know why.
The Chinese have a saying about knowledge; they break understanding into three categories:
1. Savage (a savage has no understanding of a tree, he will shelter under it, chop it and burn it for warmth but it is a mystical wonderful thing to him.
2. Scientist (A scientist will break a tree down into systems and parts, xylem, heartwood, root systems cytoplasts, etc) but the scientist will no longer enjoy the beauty of the tree because they are so caught up in the parts that make it up.
3. Learned Man: One, who encompasses the learning of both, while understanding the systems that make up a tree, can also enjoy its beauty and mystery.
I hope that I have become a learned man when it comes to people.
>>If you're lucky enough to meet a person with an open mind, that's great.
All minds are open if we can just find the right phrase to open the lock they have placed there; words are keys, just find the right ones.
>>But the average Bush-hater is quit resilient. He will reject any attempt at 'education'.
>>And because you can't prove most of your points with certainty, someone who is not
>>open-minded is not prone to persuasion.
I have found that if they will actually talk to me instead of throwing verbal bombs and running away (linguistic terrorists if you will) that I can find common ground from which to teach.
>>The fact that someone sees himself in a positive light, does not necessarily make him a good person.
He or she is a good person in his mind, and that is where you start, what is wrong with their perception of what is good? Why do they think they are a positive influence? What can they be taught to bring them one step closer to truth?
>>And I certainly don't think that 99.999% of all people are good.
Ah, but they think they are, and that is what matters.
>>Making that argument is a huge, huge risk, because it is so transparent.
No one will insist that most people are evil in their own sight (unless rarity of rarities you are talking with someone who is evil in their own sight) because people tend to project when talking about others in a generic sense. This projection will cause them to want everyone to see themselves as good because they see them selves as good. To say the reverse is to want the reverse, see?
>>Debate isn't usually a good way of persuading people, because people are naturally
>>defensive in a debate.
That is entirely the point of debate, and if you can draw out your opponent by making truly thought provoking statements, you can communicate with even the most recaltrant verbal hermit.
>>It has to be veeeery subtle if you want to convince someone. (Or it might just be me,
>>and the fact that I'm probably more confrontational in my approach than you are.)
Oh, I can be confrontational when I want to be.. My wife had this Feminazi co worker that was always harassing the men, they could not fight back because she would cry harassment if they defended themselves. I held my tongue at my wife’s request until we were at a department party. She saw me helping my wife with her coat, after holding the door for her. She went off on a tirade about what a male chauvinist pig I was. My wife turned to me and winked and said “Have fun dear” I turned to her and said “My wife likes me that way and I care far more about her opinion than I do about yours.” She tried to talk about the reasons it was not “Good” to be a chauvinist, but couldn’t get past that I didn’t care what she thought. I opined that “It must be really hard for you to know that God is a man and really doesn’t care that you do not like how he arranged the natural order here on earth.” She burst into tears and tried to play the victim, but much to her shock all the men from her department started clapping. She avoided me from then on (which was fine with me.) So you see, I can be blunt when it serves my purpose.
>>(By the way, in my experience, people find a flaw even though there is no flaw, grin.)
They may, but it will bother them, they will continue to mull it in the back of their mind, like an itch that you cannot scratch.
>>Right now, we are using informal logic to debate about informal logic.
Are we?
>>The debate you wrote about homosexuality utilized informal logic.
Actually, it used formal Logic, or real logic, the original logic? OK, Logic.
>>So in practice, you don't find it uselss, otherwies, you would not be using it.
I am using Logic, the old style.
>>Nothing can be proven by informal logic. Informal logic comes with probability, not
>>with certainty. Example: Bush is a good man, he liberated 40 million people.
Your informal logic cannot prove anything because it assumes relationships which are not established in fact as part of the rationale. For example in your statement, the “freeing of 40 million”, was that on purpose? Or did he just have a duel and win?
>>You might think of informal logic as "reaching conclusion based on observation:
>>generalizing to produce a universal claim or principle from observed instances" and of
>>formal logic as "the forming of conclusions by applying the rules of logic to a
>>premise".
Observation is part of Normal logic.
Normal logic can also have generalization, though you usually need to have several instances to have a generalization stick.
Premises are a part of all scientific processes, including logic, as are postulates and theories.
>>>>Since Logic is a term that by definition must predate Informal Logic and there are
>>>>many books and documents that have been written it is only logical to mean formal
>>>>logic when you say Logic and only say “Informal Logic” when you mean this
>>>>newer brand of Logic, don’t you agree?
>>Perhaps, but in that case, we shouldn't be using 'logic' and 'informal logic'
>>interchangeably, which you were doing, I believe.
Not having a clear definition has left me in quandary as to when I should be using which term.
But as far as the phenomena the words describe go, I believe informal logic is older than logic itself.
This cannot be, or we would refer to inductive reasoning as logic deductive logic would have the additional words to define it in terms of the existing version of Logic.
>>Logic had to be invented (remember, All men are mortal), while informal logic is
>>intuitive. So in fact, we should be using logic for 'informal logic'. (I just wanted to hit
>>back at you, wink.)
Logic is, kind of like wet is, you may have to invent a word for it, but it just is. (back at you with spin)
>>>>“I have worked hard to become so [adept at putting people through a meat-grinder].” – Princess bride
>>Interesting. Can you teach me, or at least tell me how you learned it?
I have always had a different way of looking at things. It gives me an edge in debates, I can have more than one perspective, I can have up to eight concurrent thoughts running in my head at once although to do so for more than a few hours gives me a headache. (Part of that autistic tendency I was talking about.) Normal brains kill off any neural nets that do not join the largest one (“There can be only one” – Highlander, for your brain) Autistic people never kill a brain cell voluntarily, so I have multiple neural nets in my brain.
>>After a gazillion posts, my inability to adequately explain the term 'informal logic'
>>should make it very clear to you where my weakness in debates lays.
I have found that following in Jesus’ footsteps is always a good way to go. He was a master teacher, he changed the perspectives of heaven only knows how many people, he taught with stories. Try a story that illustrates both types of Logic and highlites the differences.
At the risk of being too bold, I will attempt to tell such a story. In these storys it is best to begin with a topic most of your audience already knows about.
So let’s use Adam and Eve and Satan in the Garden of Eden (Even non Christians tend to know this story)
Satan trying to tempt Adam went to him and asked him to try the forbidden fruit. Adam said “no.” Then Adam told Satan he would not disobey God the Father. This is logic or direct reasoning Action and reaction, straight lines of thought.
Then Satan went to eve and asked her to eat of the fruit, he told her it was delicious, and good. Eve asked Satan who he was. Satan answered that he was her brother, and he wanted her to try the forbidden fruit.
Here we have Satan using Normal Sight logic, and Eve using curved, non linear logic which as I read Genesis kind of put Satan off his guard.
So Logic is Straight lines and “Informal Logic” is curved lines. But you can use both to come to the same conclusions.
>>You really knew what you were doing, if you were able to put people who were coming after you on the defensive about their own faith.
It’s really not that hard, honest.
I don't have that problem, I'm agnostic. But I don't argue with religious people over their religion. Answers are rarely given, it is mostly a waste of time.
I would agree, answer questions yes, defend when attacked, yes offer to teach yes, attack someone else = waste my time?
>>I'm very curious to know why Christians, for example, insist on the inerrancy of the
>>Bible, and regard it as the Word of God, while at the same time disregarding huge
>>portions of it. I don't mean to offend you (Mormons believe in the Bible too, not), I'm
>>just curious, but I never got an answer. Thus, I concluded that it was pointless and only
>>served to damage my nerves.
Mormon’s believe the Bible to be the word of God as long as it is translated correctly (there is a lot of stuff in there that is open to interpretation, this keeps us from being stuck with someone else’s interpretation.) Mormons actually adhere to and read the Bible more than most other religions, but they would disagree with that. I will state that when I attended other churches with my friends, their ministers were always impressed with my grasp of the Bible.
CHINESE? You can read Chinese? And Sun Tzu is right, as always.
I spent two years in Taiwan as a missionary, learned 5 dialects, graduated from a Buddhist monastery, memorized the basic 3K characters that give you the equivalent to a two year degree from a college and I specialized in computer symbols and added those to my 3K. It has been over 20years, and I can’t read much without a dictionary near by, but I like to keep my hand in (I am still conversational though) It surprises a lot of people for a round eyes like me to respond to questions about me (grin) you should see their faces!
>>It is always nice to let an opponent occupy a position that is weaker. However, usually,
>>after he has failed to defend that position successfully, he will just retreat to a stronger
>>position. He will lose some credibility with the audience, but he has not 'lost'.
Only if you let him; if you let him expend enough capital/intellect/reputation, and even start to plan a strategy around holding that ground, you destroy his strategy and his defense is weaker because of this lost time and confusion at losing ground he though he controlled.
>>>>Ask the next scientist you meet to explain this “In a truly statistical universe,
>>>>everything possible must happen” and have fun listening to him explode (grin).
>>I don't get it either.
Scientists act like the universe can be described with statistics; however statistics describe a universe where everything happens, just the probability is being calculated. Therefore we do not live in a truly statistical universe (because not everything happens here), statistics are then an improper tool to describe our universe, but it’s such a useful tool we use it anyway.
Logic is superior to illogic; Straight lines are easier to explain to another person than curved lines. By using arguments that are direct, yet thought provoking you can change someone’s mind who thought it had been made up. Questions are often more powerful than statements. Most of all, strategy in conversation keeping your goal in mind will give your conversation a sharp quality that is attractive to others, while being difficult to refute. Ronal Reagan exemplified this kind of tactic when giving a press conference he opened with “Before I refuse to answer your questions, I have a statement.” His humor, directness and charisma made those in the press chuckle, but they let him get away with this tactic. I miss having a president like him.
Anyway, God bless.