Jobs, Dell share stage, blast Teacher Unions

Mac News Network ^ | February 16, 2007

[WorkingClassFilth]

I'd go for that with a couple qualifiers. One, start all students in the same setting. This way we all learn something about democracy, equality and performance based advancement. Two, let performance alone make the distinctions - not shrink tests. Using test methods to pre-select placement smacks of Euro-style class determination. Some kids are screw-offs and finally make a come-back and the door shouldn't be closed via bureaucratic standardized testing. If the kids are dolts or simply not college material, their performance over time should shunt them into the proper channels.

[hosepipe]

The ONLY non damaged students are home schooled..
ALL others are bored to death.. even in the colleges..

[Constantine XIII]

It's just like that time GI Joe and Cobra teamed up to fight the drug dealers. :p

[gas0linealley]

In the scenario Jobs gave, the teachers can establish and own the schools. The best schools would make the most money, and the teachers can benefit financially, in addition to the reward of being better educators.

I'm curious about the details of that scenario. For instance:

If the teachers own the school, who would determine if one or more of them was not performing at the required level? And what could be done about it?

If the school was making money, how would new teachers get onboard? They would have to buy a share, not so? What would it cost, and how could a beginner afford it?

Would each teacher make all decisions concerning curriculum etc. for their students, or would they all have to reach a consensus? If each didn't get their own way, would they feel that things weren't really much different from the public schools?

Finally, I'm curious...have you ever tried to do business with Property Owner's Associations. I have, and it isn't an experience I would recommend.

[NCLaw441]

I agree with you that testing should be valid as to the abilities we truly SHOULD be testing. I also agree that there should be a mechanism for escape from the track a student may get placed in early on, to account for epiphanies that some students have when they realize that their vocational future may involve shovels and mops rather than suits and computers.

I am a strong believer in people rising to the level of expectations. I am also a believer in accountability, as well as opportunity.

Many students, especially minority students and those from lower socio-economic groups (like I was growing up), arrive at school unprepared and un-encouraged from seeking success. That is a loss not only to that student but to all of us who would benefit from what that student could produce.

[NCLaw441]

You said: There is competition. Private schools, including religious based, prep schools and experimental schools abound. It's just that many people can't afford them.
***

Competition doesn't exist if there is no access to competing products. Quality in education may be difficult to quantify, but we know it when we see it. It is usually marked by: quiet, well-behaved, industrious students; neat and tidy (not necessarily fancy or highly electronically equipped) classrooms and school grounds; articulate and involved teachers; successful students, objectively measured. These things can be seen in successful schools with little more than a quick walk through the halls and glimpses into the classrooms. Go to any school that is successful (that is, whose students are progressing at the best rate their abilities will allow) and you will see these things. Go to any school that is failing and you will see and hear undisciplined students, sloppy classrooms, lunchrooms and common areas, inarticulate, disinterested teachers and failing students.

Competition discourages failure because it is not rewarded, and encourages success because it is rewarded.

[durasell]

Competition doesn't exist if there is no access to competing products.






Do you mean to say that competing products don't exist or that folks can't afford them?

[Fresh Wind]

If you think the NEA is bad, consider that the Teamsters are heavily involved in school administration. Yes, many principals are Teamsters.

[NCLaw441]

I guess the products exist, but they aren't really competing if you can't afford them. For example, if there were two kinds of cars, Ford at $15K and Ferrarri at $300K (or whatever they cost), those cars don't really compete, because they aren't really available to the vast majority of people.

[durasell]

Ford at $15K and Ferrarri at $300K (or whatever they cost), those cars don't really compete, because they aren't really available to the vast majority of people.




The high end sports car and budget car do not compete against each other, but both exist in highly competitive marketplaces.

The budget car has to sell a ton to make a profit and competes for those 500,000 customers.. The high end sports car competes fiercely for those 500 customers who can afford it.

Folks want more choice in education -- and choice has always been for those who could afford it. Eliminating public education and putting a few more bucks in their pockets will not offer them more choice. It will simply raise the baseline.

[NCLaw441]

You said: Folks want more choice in education -- and choice has always been for those who could afford it. Eliminating public education and putting a few more bucks in their pockets will not offer them more choice. It will simply raise the baseline.
***

A couple of thoughts. Choice in education HAS always been for those who could afford it, and there will always be those who cannot afford it (or more correctly, choose not to afford it, putting other things at a higher priority). Choice in many other products remains available to most everyone, depending on their priorities.

In the education context, most school systems work off of a per pupil and per school day attended system of financing. This per pupil amount could be made transferable, either within the public schools, or to be applied to private schools as well. I guess this is the voucher system some have advocated.

[durasell]

The voucher system is one of those deals that sounds good, but will eventually backfire.

The first time voucher money goes to an Islamic or Wiccan school people are going to scream like stuck pigs about where their tax dollars are going.

The "for profit" and private schools, which seek to make a buck, will simply raise their tuition nearly to the eact amount equal to the voucher. So a $15,000 a year school will become a $22,000 a year school to include the $7,000 "voucher money" and a lot of folks will be back where they started.

A lot of edu-hustlers will come in with cut rate schools and rip folks off.


The real question folks should be asking themselves is why very high end neighborhoods take pride in their public schools? Why is it the people with the highest property taxes, etc. in places like Scarsdale, N.Y. or New Canaan, CT. regularly see their kids go on to good colleges with high SAT scores and never complain about property taxes?

The answer, of course, is that they get their money's worth. The parents are organized, hold school officials accountable, and scream bloody murder if SAT scores drop a half a percentage point.

[eleni121]

THAT is right..they cannot afford them because they have to pay property taxes to failing public schools.

Competition would require an even playing field. Get rid of the property funded school taxes that maintain bad schools and teachers. Let people - especially low income folks - decide on their own where to send their kids.

That would really stir up things for the better.