[Irene Adler]

"If as I'm sure you believe, human rights such as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are given only by the Creator, not by man, then those rights exist period. They are not bound by the limitations of time or place. That the federal courts refused to consider the basic rights of the citizens of the United States until after the 14th Amendment...and then taking another hundred years before the courts recognized their duty did not make it right. Did the United States have the duty to protect the rights of its citizens with one of the states in the Union? Of course it did. That is the primary duty of any government. That it didn't is ignored by those who want to forget. All was corrected by the 14th Amendment, huh? Oh, BTW, that would include the religious tests. So the denial of rights to any citizen of the United States is unconstitutional and always has been. It just wasn't enforced. Remember, rights trump powers. And rights are not dependent on man for ratification. They exist independent of time and place, and government is duty bound to enforce them."

From your many posts, I surmise you do not believe in the existence of Original Sin. For Christians, who do, there is no surprise in the reality the people are not perfect and never will be, nor will any governmental organizations they devise. The fact that it took many years for the ideals (propositions as correctly denoted by Abraham Lincoln) written in our Constitution to be made reality should not surprise anyone. People are simply not perfect and will never be until Christ returns.

I have read your posts with interest and do not disagree with some of your points, but the smugness with which you present them is difficult to get past. The impression you give is that same as that given by so many on the left. I would ask you, in all seriousness, to consider, at least, that you, like the rest of us fallen human beings, are not in possession of all the answers. It is those who believe they do have all the answers who are dangerous; any list of murderous dictators proves that. We Christians know we are sinners, and that perfection is God's alone. No Constitution we could ever write would be perfect, nor would any application of such Constitution. Can we make things better? Sure, but perfect, never.

One more small thing: perhaps slavery, which has been practiced all around the world for thousands of years, and is still being practiced in certain areas (with very little outcry on the part of the self-annointed world elites/media) is something that doesn't need to be flogged endlessly in relation to the U.S.

What would happen if you were as concerned with slavery as it is practiced today in Africa? Why not turn your attention to that problem that exists today, rather than cranking about any country's less-than-perfect past?

[MACVSOG68]

From your many posts, I surmise you do not believe in the existence of Original Sin. For Christians, who do, there is no surprise in the reality the people are not perfect and never will be, nor will any governmental organizations they devise.

I'm open to the issue, for I really don't know, any more than does anyone else, pure faith notwithstanding.

I have read your posts with interest and do not disagree with some of your points, but the smugness with which you present them is difficult to get past. The impression you give is that same as that given by so many on the left. I would ask you, in all seriousness, to consider, at least, that you, like the rest of us fallen human beings, are not in possession of all the answers.

Of course I'm not in possession of all the answers. But don't just look at my posts. Look at those who posted to me. I took issue with those who believe that people are moral and just only because of Christianity, and therefore Christians should be in charge. Those posters made point after point about how great we are because our forefathers were Christians. I pointed out that what they created was a country where the ownership of other human beings was not only tolerated but justified by the Bible, and that the only really free people were white Christian male property owners. That's a far cry from smugness, at least on my part. I recognize our mistakes, and do not wish them to be repeated. Which is why I do not want those with radical or extremist views running my Country, whether they be from the left or right.

No Constitution we could ever write would be perfect, nor would any application of such Constitution. Can we make things better? Sure, but perfect, never.

And I agree with that. But I distinguish between the Constitution and society. Christians were primarily responsible for the society they created that was tremendously in conflict with the principles they wrote in both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. It sounds like you are not taking responsibility for that social order created and run by Christians. It should be a little more than "Christians aren't perfect".

One more small thing: perhaps slavery, which has been practiced all around the world for thousands of years, and is still being practiced in certain areas (with very little outcry on the part of the self-annointed world elites/media) is something that doesn't need to be flogged endlessly in relation to the U.S.

I use that piece of our history when I am told that without Christians starting our great Nation, we would have no moral or just values. So I do not flog for no reason. You cannot separate out the bad parts just to take credit for the good.

What would happen if you were as concerned with slavery as it is practiced today in Africa? Why not turn your attention to that problem that exists today, rather than cranking about any country's less-than-perfect past?

This thread is about the religious right and its influence in politics. I didn't raise the issue of the beginnings of our Country; others posted that history to me. But it's clear from that last comment that, with all due respect, I have no market cornered on smugness.