the ancient day equivalent of the immigrants and homosexuals that modern Christians like to pick on.
Hmmm...picking on immigrants?
Here's an op-ed about the relationship between Christianity and immigrant law. Notice the title--if law-breaking by a class of people results in 86 hospitals closing in a single state, are you actually saying that it's un-Christlike to think that's a bad thing? Notice how the Left uses faux Christian concerns to stifle people who merely advocate following the law. Take a look at post 19 for an excellent rebuttal of the "Jesus would give illegals amnesty" talking point.
Lastly, and most importantly, can you cite me a Christian conservative saying that illegal aliens should be mistreated, or that they should be at a disadvantage for any reason other than the fact that they are breaking the law?
I'll deal with homosexuals further down. Let's go back to the top for the rest of this:
I always thought math, history, and the wisdom of successful people were pretty important.
Successful people like, say, Ronald Regan, a social conservative? People like our Founding Fathers? Even the most secular of them, men like Jefferson and Franklin, would be regarded as wide-eyed Religious Right extremists today.
I guess a 2000 year old book with a completely warped meaning is just as good, huh?
Ah, a biblical expert. Well then, a few questions. Read on.
I'm sorry, I'm just looking for the part of the Bible where Jesus starts a war on drugs and loathes, criminilizes, and condemns "sinners" to social alienation.
Can you name me a passage where Jesus or any of His disciples defines the role of government and the church's relation to it? (Hint: there is one, arguably two, this is not a trick question.)
All I find is that all his friends were prostitutes and tax collectors
1. Where did Jesus call for the repeal of Jewish or Roman laws against prostitution?
2. Can you cite me any writing by a Founder that advocates repealing laws against prostitution or any other sin that was outlawed at that time?
the ancient day equivalent of the immigrants and homosexuals that modern Christians like to pick on.
Ah, now let's talk about homsexuals. Have you ever wondered why the Religious Right doesn't have any groups to counter burglary or gluttony but they have groups that counter gay rights? Well, when was the last time you came across a well-funded lobbying effort on behalf of burglars? When was the last time you heard someone say that if a parent wants to teach their children why they shouldn't steal, that parent must be motivated by hatred?
If the people claiming Christianity acted like Jesus did, religion would be a fine way to rule.
1. If people, any people could act like Jesus, we wouldn't have needed Him to come down here and die on a cross.
2. Can you cite for me an example of an American politician telling people they should vote for him because he's a Christian? There actually are a few, but the ones I can think of are all libs, like Ford running those "Vote for me I go to church" ads in Tennessee last year, or Jimmy Carter's 1980 ad where he actually said people should vote for him because he prayed and read the Bible daily.
Got any GOP types who've done that? If so, do you think that you could (if you had the research time) prove that even 5% of GOP pols campaign on their relationship with Jesus? If you couldn't prove that, then why should we care that some tiny percentage of one party makes a stupid argument? Shouldn't we focus on the arguments from reason the other 95% are making?
"Can you name me a passage where Jesus or any of His disciples defines the role of government and the church's relation to it? (Hint: there is one, arguably two, this is not a trick question.)"
Well I would immediately think of the ancient messianic prophecies and how they had all been interpreting the prophecy to expect a military leader who would lead a political revolution against the Roman empire. Instead, He came up with a motto like: "Render unto Caesar."
He wasn't a big fan of the Judaic theocratic leaders, either. He sort of came in the center of their religious/capitalist machine and literally upturned everything. In my personal reading (and I have had so many Biblical 'experts' priests pastors and preachers try to say it means something else) but I see the good JC trying to seperate spirituality from religion, business, and politics in order to eliminate secular greed. He says you can make your relationship with God a personal thing and that He is there when just 2-3 are gathered in His name. He isn't trying to build a new political organization, he's trying to embarass the one that has grown old and corrupt and judgemental.
"Where did Jesus call for the repeal of Jewish or Roman laws against prostitution?"
Or I could ask, when did he ever use law against any sinner? The law said the prostitute could be stoned to death, but obviously He didn't see any justice in that. Modern day Christians seem readier to hurl that rock, even if in a more symbolic and less physically violent way.
"Can you cite me any writing by a Founder that advocates repealing laws against prostitution or any other sin that was outlawed at that time?"
Well nope. The best I can think of off the top of my head is support for laws that would simply allow Jews and Catholics to vote. I also have a hard time reading the Bill of Rights without seeing it as a means of protecting Americans from all sorts of frivolous prosecution. Although things weren't up-front legalized, search, interrogation, and censorship is so limited that if the government actually held to those ideals I doubt we would have the world's largest prison population (and we do have more prisoners than China and Russia combined - and sure, that's because China executes people wholesale - I just don't like being in that kind of prison club)
"Ah, now let's talk about homsexuals. Have you ever wondered why the Religious Right doesn't have any groups to counter burglary or gluttony but they have groups that counter gay rights? Well, when was the last time you came across a well-funded lobbying effort on behalf of burglars? When was the last time you heard someone say that if a parent wants to teach their children why they shouldn't steal, that parent must be motivated by hatred?"
Not all crime or sin is a crime of direct violation. No one sane is going to justify theft of personal property or physical violence because they directly infringe on another person's rights. What about that guy smoking a joint, or wanting to marry his boyfriend, or someone who has become so in love with the concept of America and denied legal entry that they would risk ANYTHING to come here? Who here would risk EVERYTHING to come to America?
How can you argue a compelling social interest without crossing the fine line into socialism, where every individual's actions become the business of the state in the hopes of efficiency? A person in situation A is a liability because they are statistically likely to do B. Or person C is a liability because their lifestyle has a higher incidence of D. Sure. That's the logic that will outlaw guns, fast food, TV, and whatever freedom is deemed too expensive for our current socialist system to pay for. Already the Brits have begun denying their "universal" health care to smokers and overweight people (and by overweight, a lot of aging- and ex-Atheletes are falling into this category.)
Personally, I think it's silly that the government is involved with the business of marriage at all. Marriage is a religious tradition, right? So keep it in the churches. I'd rather not turn our judges into pastors.
My issue is how a certain type of socialist logic is sold under a "pure" Christian banner. Free will takes a back seat to the social costs of sin, even if the sin itself has no effect on violating another citizen's freedom. Moral outrage? Fine, judge people who have done no direct harm in your heart - not in the courts and not in the constitutions.
"Can you cite for me an example of an American politician telling people they should vote for him because he's a Christian?"
Almost every president has run on this platform. We've had a handful of Deists with Christian fundamentals, 1-2 Catholic, 1 unspecified, 1 Southern Baptist and the rest are all other protestants! At best, its a sham label that is merely a pre-requisite for consideration.
"Got any GOP types who've done that? If so, do you think that you could (if you had the research time) prove that even 5% of GOP pols campaign on their relationship with Jesus?"
Nope! Again, the politicians don't need a personal relationship with Jesus. They just have to be "tough on crime," opposed to gay marriage, opposed to abortion, and skeptical of immigration - and they'll snag the Christian votes. The policies that are demanded as a substitute for that relationship with Christ are pretty ironic, but that's just my opinion and I respect your opinion to disagree! Obviously, I have some personal biases as I said in my other post I have experience with what it's like to be marginalized/demonized by a Christian community simply for being sick. Its a pretty raw deal. Thank God the immigrants and the homosexuals and drug users understood and accepted.
"Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, so you do unto me."
Jefferson's dismissal of the notion that his neighbor saying that there were twenty gods, or no gods, was anybody else's business.
Next question?