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Axis of Ethanol
INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY ^
| 8 Feb 2007
| Staff
Posted on 02/08/2007 7:35:28 PM PST by Kitten Festival
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To: SAJ
". . . And set fire to the cane fields in FL and LA. 3 or 4 times a year, if possible. . . ."
Uhh, SAJ; I live just to the southwest of Lafayette, Louisiana and what I will describe as the northern edge of near geographically contiguous sugar cane farming begins about 3 miles south from where I live. When they burn the sugar cane fields every year, I get the very worst sinus inflammation and headaches you can imagine. They are prevented by law from burning the fields on school days, just to give you an idea of how bothersome the practice can be.
I hope you will not take offense if I demur from your above suggestion. LOL!
141
posted on
02/10/2007 11:14:58 AM PST
by
StJacques
(Liberty is always unfinished business)
To: Kenny Bunk
". . . After the 11 US refineries which handle Venezuelan Crude are switched to other feedstocks, which takes a while, Chávez would really be up a bit of a creek, because in order to use the stuff, other refinery facilities would have to be found and adapted . . ."
The "adapted" part is more important to Venezuela than one might normally think because most Venezuelan crude has a high sulfur content, which requires special adaptation on the part of refiners to extract. And it's not some little adjustment either. You are talking about building what amounts to almost a "mini-refinery" just to remove the sulfur. This is a lot different from Middle East oil, which every refiner wants to get his hands on.
142
posted on
02/10/2007 11:20:13 AM PST
by
StJacques
(Liberty is always unfinished business)
To: StJacques
Would you agree that one way to look at a "still" is as a refinery where sugars, starches, and cellulose are "cracked" to produce various alcohols?
143
posted on
02/10/2007 11:40:42 AM PST
by
NicknamedBob
(Sign says, "No dogs allowed -- except seeing-eye dogs" Why don't they put that sign down lower?)
To: StJacques
Not at all. Sorry to hear about your condition. No good medications for the sinus problem? Pretty surprising if not.
Would you settle for simply ''plowing under''?...g!
All the cane burning aside, there is absolutely no economic rationale for growing cane in the continental US...except if you count ''Hey! I can get handouts world without end if I grow cane!'' as a valid economic premise.
144
posted on
02/10/2007 11:46:52 AM PST
by
SAJ
(debunking myths about markets and prices on FR since 2001)
To: StJacques
Saint -- Old news. Long ago, the various ag lobbies got together and, effectively, formed a compact to mutually support each others' subsidies and handouts, lest each group be picked off one by one when proposals to reduce subsidies came along.
Said compact is still in force -- informally, of course, mustn't step over the anti-trust line, y'know.
145
posted on
02/10/2007 11:51:26 AM PST
by
SAJ
(debunking myths about markets and prices on FR since 2001)
To: StJacques
I wonder where Chávez is going to sell his sludge, if not to us. Could it be that his ace-in-the-hole is the CHICOM?
Awful long way for a tanker to go, but then again lots of empty tankers do show up in Venezuela. OTOH, the CHICOM have a lot of oil a lot closer.
On yet another hand, his relations with FARC could mean he means to go big-time in the self-administered botanical medication business. He's going to go bankrupt and will need the cash-flow.
146
posted on
02/10/2007 12:32:55 PM PST
by
Kenny Bunk
(Biden, Biden, he's my man, if anyone says it, he soon can!)
To: Kitten Festival
147
posted on
02/10/2007 12:56:18 PM PST
by
Tolerance Sucks Rocks
(“Don’t overestimate the decency of the human race.” —H. L. Mencken)
To: USFRIENDINVICTORIA
butanol from garbage and cellulose will be even better.
(Yea, yeah, I know, broken record and all that...)
148
posted on
02/10/2007 12:59:00 PM PST
by
Tolerance Sucks Rocks
(“Don’t overestimate the decency of the human race.” —H. L. Mencken)
To: Kenny Bunk
Maybe you know: but I thought I'd heard a while back that the only other country which has the rigs to process Venezuela's crude (besides the US)... was Iran? I know there's one other country, and Iran keeps coming to mind.
Your points are right.
149
posted on
02/10/2007 2:18:46 PM PST
by
Alia
To: thackney
I AGREE!!!! But when you can't drill oil at all due to leftists in congress who are now scheming to make anwr PERMANENTLY off limits, switchgrass is your only option to increasing the energy supply. The more you increase it, the more you thwack Hugo.
But I agree - oil is always better.
To: NicknamedBob
Bob, there is no question that is the definition of a still.
I may have chanced upon an acquaintance of mine producing moonshine from his own still -- this was purely by accident on my part you see -- so I have seen the process up close and am quite familiar with it.
151
posted on
02/11/2007 9:59:15 AM PST
by
StJacques
(Liberty is always unfinished business)
To: SAJ
First of all; on sugar cane -- get rid of it if it cannot stand on its own. If I had realized you were suggesting burning the Louisiana sugar cane fields to get rid of it I might not have demurred after all.
On the Sugar Subsidy, there is clearly an entire complex of interests brought together to support and maintain it. But that truth does not change the fact that a federally financed ethanol industrial development plan that is implemented simultaneously alongside subsidized sugar and high fructose corn syrup will be far more expensive than it should be and far less successful than it could be.
There has been so little discussion about what the Sugar Subsidy costs this country. Do you know that major candy manufacturers like Brach's are moving their production facilities to Canada simply for the price of sugar? The labor in Canada is actually more expensive than in Memphis, but the price of sugar is just too high here.
152
posted on
02/11/2007 11:01:40 AM PST
by
StJacques
(Liberty is always unfinished business)
To: StJacques; SAJ; SierraWasp
One of the advantages of cellulosic alcohol production, particularly of butanol, is that it does not depend on a subsidized sugar raw material.
Converting cornstalks and other biowaste into butanol, (and hydrogen), would permit a slow growth into the fuel industry, gradually reducing our dependence on foreign suppliers and boosting our agricultural production.
153
posted on
02/11/2007 11:31:40 AM PST
by
NicknamedBob
(Sign says, "No dogs allowed -- except seeing-eye dogs" Why don't they put that sign down lower?)
To: StJacques
Good points all. Yes, having traded in sugar (all types) for more than 3 decades, I like to think I'm quite aware of
all the downsides to the sugar subsidy.
You're dead-bang on about the subsidies making ethanol much more expensive than it needs to be, but the fact that the gov't are proceeding regardless with this huge programme is yet another indication of how far they're removed from economic reality. That said, it makes no difference (except cost) to the factual situation; ethanol is and always will be a crappy motor fuel.
Oh, and you missed out one of the downsides. By artificially making sugar expensive, we all get the ''benefits'' of having HFCS dumped into some 70%+ of processed food products. Good for ADM, of course, but horrible for everyone else.
I'm all for getting rid of domestic cane growing, entirely. Now, all we have to do (haha) is outbid the sugar lobby for the 'Critters.
154
posted on
02/11/2007 11:51:35 AM PST
by
SAJ
(debunking myths about markets and prices on FR since 2001)
To: NicknamedBob
Get back to me on cellulosic processes for motor fuels when you've solved the enzyme problem that makes mass production too costly to consider.
Nothing against them in general, but I've no interest in generating yet **another** subsidy-hog programme. And they will have to be subsidised, make no mistake about it. Way too dollar-costly for the consumer unless subsidised.
155
posted on
02/11/2007 11:54:22 AM PST
by
SAJ
(debunking myths about markets and prices on FR since 2001)
To: SAJ; StJacques; Kitten Festival
"Get back to me on cellulosic processes for motor fuels when you've solved the enzyme problem that makes mass production too costly to consider." Well, I have not solved that problem yet, but Daniel Kammen of butanol.com is asserting that a two stage process of producing first butyric acid, and then converting that to butanol, produces about 2.5 gallons of butanol per bushel of corn, with hydrogen as a bonus product.
We are agreed that corn is not the best starting position, and that generalized organic wastes would be better, but it does appear to solve the enzyme problem to which you allude.
I am not entirely prepared to buy into all the hype that seems to accompany his message, but I do have hope that such a process does exixt, or can be contrived.
Various methods of extracting the useful energy of agricultural waste will be developed, and a direction that yields butanol, which is said to be a direct replacement for gasoline without engine modifications, seems to offer the most potential for a rapid integration into our existing systems.
156
posted on
02/11/2007 12:57:33 PM PST
by
NicknamedBob
(Sign says, "No dogs allowed -- except seeing-eye dogs" Why don't they put that sign down lower?)
To: NicknamedBob
"Why fight against a rising tide?"Because I understand the value of commonsense! The energy contained in the molicules of ALL the alternative alternatives... Does not even begin to approach the energy contained in petroleum products!
The human race cannot survive long enough to change that on this planet!!! All the alternatives have already been totally checked out and that's the end of it till all you true believers finally wake up to that one simple fact!!!
It's all such an unbelievable waste of time and mental energy! We simply need nuclear to save petroleum from being used, no wasted, in non-transport endeavors!!! But you can keep giving everyone a headache and wasting money and all you'll do is what the GovernMental EnvironMentalist are doing... And that is making everything cost more, for no good reason!!! I will never stop protesting that!!! Because it's stupid!!!
157
posted on
02/12/2007 11:08:05 AM PST
by
SierraWasp
(Grayout Davis, Gang-Green Schwartzenegger... Recycled Jerry "Moonbeam" Brown!!! Watch for it in 4!!!)
To: SierraWasp
That second sentence should have read... "Does not even begin to compare to the energy contained in the molecules of petroleum products!"
158
posted on
02/12/2007 11:15:03 AM PST
by
SierraWasp
(Grayout Davis, Gang-Green Schwartzenegger... Recycled Jerry "Moonbeam" Brown!!! Watch for it in 4!!!)
To: omnivore
I totally agree with you. But the fact remains, with leftists in power in congress, there will be no drilling going on. For now, we may well have to make do with the inefficient ethanol, (while Mexicans who need tortillas starve, the whole thing does not make sense). But the one thing we can do with it, in this temporary leftist era, is make ethanol out of it to destroy hugo chavez. I can live with this even if I know it is not perfect. every little thing that we can do to stick it to hugo is one less thing he can do to us. we have to destroy this thug. the military is not an option. the other latams are unwilling. pretty much all that is left is economic warfare. that leaves ethanol. if we can take hugie out with it, it will have served its purpose.
To: SierraWasp
Ethanol = Unsustainable, subsidized, food burning, mileage ruining, non-pipelinable, corrosive, caustic, economically backward FRAUD!!! Don't forget soil-depleting, topsoil-erroding and chemical-fertilizer-polluting.
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