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ATF Commerce in Firearms PDF Report (The War on the 2nd Amendment in the ATF's Own Words)
ATF Report ^ | February 2000 | Bureau Of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

Posted on 02/08/2007 6:58:20 PM PST by Copernicus

ATF Commerce in Firearms PDF Report

The Gun Control Act of 1968 established the first comprehensive Federal licensing system for importers, manufacturers and dealers in firearms to the retail level. That system requires licensees to maintain detailed records on transactions in firearms, and subjects their business premises to inspection by the ATF.

From 1968 to 1993, THE PROCESS TO OBTAIN A FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSE WAS OVERLY SIMPLE. (emphasis added)

The annual fee WAS ONLY $10 for a license that authorized the person to ship, transport and receive firearms in interstate commerce and engage in retail sales. The statue required ATF to issue a license within 45 days to anyone who was 21 years old, had premises from which they intended to conduct business and who otherwise was not prohibited from possessing firearms.

The statute was designed TO LIMIT THE DISCRETION OF ATF IN DENYING LICENSES.

Over time the numbers of licensees began to swell until 1992 when the numbers reached over 284,000...............

In 1993, Congress increased the license application fee to $200 for three years.

Again, in 1994, Congress imposed requirements that applicants submit photographs and fingerprints to better enable ATF to identify applicants and new criteria that ensures that the business to be conducted would comply with all applicable State and local laws.....

From 1975 to 1992 the licensee population grew from 161,927 to 284,117...........

In 1993 and 1994, Congress added several safeguards to ensure only legitimate gun dealers obtain Federal licenses, including increased fees and certification requirements.

Following the ATF's implementation of those provisions the number of Federal firearms licensees DROPPED FROM 284,117 IN 1992 TO 103,942 IN 1999. OF THESE 80,570 ARE RETAIL DEALERS OR PAWNBROKERS.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Editorial; Government
KEYWORDS: 2ndamendment; antigun; atf; bang; banglist; batf; batfe; government; gungrab; gungrabbers; rkba; thegang; totalitarians; tyranny
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To: robertpaulsen

Contrary to popular opinion, anarch isn't always bad. On the other hand, tyranny is always bad. Which would you prefer?


81 posted on 02/09/2007 11:58:45 AM PST by oldfart (The most dangerous man is the one who has nothing left to lose.)
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To: archy
"The BATF has obtained convictions *for engaging in the busness of the sale of firearms without a license* for as few as three guns"

As well they should. And I'm sure you agree, being law abiding and all.

"it becomes real understandable why some some collectors and retired part-time dealers tried to jump through every hoop"

The operative word is "dealer". Not someone who's calling themselves a dealer to get a discount.

82 posted on 02/09/2007 12:00:12 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
The operative word is "dealer". Not someone who's calling themselves a dealer to get a discount.

Again, who exactly is suffering as a result of those folks not paying as much for their weapons?

83 posted on 02/09/2007 12:08:09 PM PST by jmc813 (Please check out www.marrow.org and consider becoming a donor. You may save a life.)
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To: oldfart
"So-called "kitchen table" firearms dealers were just exercising an ability to buy directly from manufacturers without paying middle-men. What's dishonest about that?"

By "exercising an ability" I think you mean, "exploiting a loophole". Applying for a federal license to buy and sell guns when you have have absolutely no intention whatsoever to buy and sell guns (merely to obtain them for yourself at a discounted price) is dishonest.

Call up some manufacturer, tell them you're a retailer and you want to order some items at wholesale. That OK? Is that honest?

Never mind. You probably think it is. That'll teach me try try to argue morality with someone who doesn't have a clue. Hey don't worry -- if it's legal that means you can do it. Screw everyone else. Look out for #1.

84 posted on 02/09/2007 12:08:27 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
Hey don't worry -- if it's legal that means you can do it. Screw everyone else. Look out for #1.

WHO IS THE "EVERYONE ELSE" WHO ARE GETTING SCREWED IN THIS SCENARIO?!?!?!?

85 posted on 02/09/2007 12:10:58 PM PST by jmc813 (Please check out www.marrow.org and consider becoming a donor. You may save a life.)
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To: Joe Brower

No Guns ~ No Rights!

Why is it that the same freedom hating, gun hating trolls show up on these threads, whining the same old broken record tripe.


86 posted on 02/09/2007 12:11:38 PM PST by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: jmc813
"Do you have anything against people who have accountants review their tax returns with a fine toothed comb in order to avoid as many taxes as possible?"

Of course not. Talk about stupid analogies!

What the hell is dishonest about that? Where's the misrepresentation? Where's the intent to deceive?

87 posted on 02/09/2007 12:12:19 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
"Applying for a federal license to buy and sell guns when you have have absolutely no intention whatsoever to buy and sell guns (merely to obtain them for yourself at a discounted price) is honest. In your opinion."

The guy with the FFL "is" buying and selling guns. He's just got a very small customer base, very low overhead, and low profit. That's called "competition".

The notion that someone has to have a "physical storefront" isn't REQUIRED as a condition of law for doing business for ANY other business. There are literally tens of thousands of people doing various businesses out of their homes and garages--especially with the advent of the internet (E-Bay springs to mind) EXACTLY this way--part-time, low overhead, and smaller profit margins. So for the BATF**Ks to require this for FFL's is ridiculous.

So, yes---it's perfectly honest and legit--and you're wrong.

And as to disagreeing, it seems that a number of other folks on this thread agree with me and not you.

88 posted on 02/09/2007 12:12:25 PM PST by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: tpaine
"and the idiots who elect them, urging 'more law'.."

That is a great observation which, IMHO, too many people overlook.

89 posted on 02/09/2007 12:16:09 PM PST by verity (Muhammed is a Dirt Bag)
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To: robertpaulsen
What the hell is dishonest about that? Where's the misrepresentation? Where's the intent to deceive?

Here's an example. When I get a new job and have to fill out a W-4 form, I claim 1 dependent in order for the withholding on each paycheck to be lower. Now, I'm not married nor do I, to the best of my knowledge, have any children. So technically I am lying when filling this form out, yet it is perfectly legal.

90 posted on 02/09/2007 12:22:12 PM PST by jmc813 (Please check out www.marrow.org and consider becoming a donor. You may save a life.)
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To: jmc813
"The basis of conservatism is individualism"

No, the basis of anarchy is individualism.

Individualism is opposed to any philosophy which stresses that communal, group, societal, racial, or national goals should take priority over individual goals.

Individualism is also opposed to the view that tradition, religion, or any other form of external moral standard should be used to limit an individual's choice of actions.

The basis of conservatism is tradition.

91 posted on 02/09/2007 12:22:34 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: MindBender26
I'm glad they do not give just anyone the ability to sell firearms at the retail level.

Quite frankly, with America under a domestic assault, when we are being overrun with illegal immigrants, when there are undoubtedly Muslim extremists moving in through our open borders, when we know there are Muslim extremist cells here already, --
-- It's unbelievable that the reaction is to restrict the ability to sell firearms at the retail level.
We need more armed citizens, not less.

Totally agree. When citizens are armed, crime goes down.

Mind-bending comment, - seeing that you admit both above and below that you are "-- glad they do not give just anyone the ability to sell firearms at the retail level --"

I just see removing the loophole amateur FFLs as a way to (help, perhaps only a little) ensure only law abiding citizens have easy access to weapons through the retail purchasing distribution.
I accept the need for FFLs, because I don't some psychotic on leave from the local Home for the Bewildered buying a .50 Barret, and having to fill out the yellow form at my local FFL-licensed dealer helps prevent that even if just a little, because the dealer isn't going to put his license and business on the line for one sale to a weirdo.

The 2d Amendment does not say you have to buy it from a FFL. You can buy it from your next door neighbor.

Not in California, according to their 'laws'.
-- Is it true that you support the idea States can make laws to that effect? --- Could you agree with this comment:

'--- Ready for the big one? California can ban all guns if they so chose. There's nothing in the state constitution (one of six states, I believe) about the right to keep and bear arms. --'

92 posted on 02/09/2007 12:23:12 PM PST by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia <)
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To: MindBender26
You are wrong. The ATF decided to decrease the number of FFLs under pressure from the large gun-selling chain stores, who didn't like what they scornfully referred to as "kitchen table dealers", meaning individuals, owning seller's licenses. The chains thought they were losing money to these people, and that was the bottom line. It had nothing to do with crime, terrorism, or anything else just greed.

As for your leftist fantasy of some Islamic terrorist with an FFL, you seem to have fallen for the gun-grabber's propaganda. Any FFL dealer who does not keep meticulous records will be in a world of trouble from the jack-booted government thugs. I know of several ex-FFLs who have been forced out of business and had hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of guns confiscated over trivial paperwork violations. Perhaps this is what you want.
93 posted on 02/09/2007 12:27:03 PM PST by ozzymandus
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To: jmc813
"Who exactly suffered financially as a result of this?"

The legitimate dealer.

The taxpayer who has to pay for a BATF large enough to track 280,000 "dealers" vs. 54,000 legitimate dealers.

94 posted on 02/09/2007 12:28:38 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen

In other words, our individual Rights and Freedoms are so important that they should be tightly limited and regulated.<p.
Just when I think you can't sink any lower... Go away you troll.


95 posted on 02/09/2007 12:31:07 PM PST by Dead Corpse (Anyone who needs to be persuaded to be free, doesn't deserve to be.)
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To: robertpaulsen
Individualism is opposed to any philosophy which stresses that communal, group, societal, racial, or national goals should take priority over individual goals.

How is this mindset any different than the philosophies laid out in "It Takes A Village" by Hillary Clinton? And what exactly is a "racial goal"? I'm a white boy and frankly, I can give a crap less about what other honkies' goals are.

Individualism is also opposed to the view that tradition, religion, or any other form of external moral standard should be used to limit an individual's choice of actions.

You're wrong again. I'm a Christian (yes, I realize that you have an asinine view that libertarians can't be Christians, even though I strongly suspect that I attend a more fundamentalist church than you), and my religious beliefs limit my personal choice of actions. I try to be a good person because God commands it. I take Him a bit more serious than the government.

96 posted on 02/09/2007 12:31:15 PM PST by jmc813 (Please check out www.marrow.org and consider becoming a donor. You may save a life.)
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To: robertpaulsen
Prior to the 13th amendment people had slaves. Your point?

There's quite a bit of difference between changing the Constitution on the one hand, and changing the law on the other, particularly because many people (including many Constitutional scholars) believe that many portions of the GCA are unconstitutional (whereas some people merely disagreed with the 13th Amendment...but that issue had been settled in 1865). Additionally, the mere sale or transfer of firearms, in and of itself, harms no one - something that cannot be said of slavery.

As for the acquisition of an FFL - the item, in and of itself, is violative of the Constitution. Further, and more to the point, how do you ***know*** that all of those "kitchen table" dealers had no intention of selling guns? Many of them actually did, although they didn't have their stores behind a plate glass window on Main Street with regular hours. Who are you, or the Feds for that matter, to tell people precisely how to conduct their business? Maybe someone wanted to buy lots of guns, use them for a while, and then be able to sell them to people in various parts of the country? Doing so without a license was and is illegal (though, again, I believe the whole concept of the FFL is itself unconstitutional), so these people paid their fees and submitted to background checks. What's the problem?

97 posted on 02/09/2007 12:34:21 PM PST by Ancesthntr
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To: robertpaulsen
"Who exactly suffered financially as a result of this?"

The legitimate dealer.

Another facet of conservatism which you apparently disregard is the belief that capitalism and a free market are the way to go. With what other industries do you support government price controls?

The taxpayer who has to pay for a BATF large enough to track 280,000 "dealers" vs. 54,000 legitimate dealers.

There shouldn't even BE a BATFE. It's blatently unconstitutional. Aren't you the one who defends states' rights to enact gun laws claiming that only the Federal Government is bound by the 2nd Amendment?

98 posted on 02/09/2007 12:37:04 PM PST by jmc813 (Please check out www.marrow.org and consider becoming a donor. You may save a life.)
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Comment #99 Removed by Moderator

To: robertpaulsen
Your own statement -- "a lot" got the license "so they and a few friends could get guns wholesale." I'm calling that behavior dishonest. Legal but dishonest.

They had no intention of buying and selling guns retail. Maintaining an inventory. Providing a service.

Well that's about stupid. FFL dealers are not required to sell retail. Businesses sell to their market. Business owners determine their market.

There is nothing dishonest with becoming a non retail FFL. Something else you might want to consider. A LOT of gunsmiths have FFL's because they do custom work and gun repairs. If you are going to send them your gun, they need to be an FFL.

FFL licenses allow people to be the receviers of firearms through the mail.

100 posted on 02/09/2007 12:42:57 PM PST by Centurion2000 (If you're not being shot at, it's not a high stress job.)
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