All very good, solid, intellectually stimulating responses I've gotten (for the most part). I'm much more pragmatic than many I've heard from. I suppose you all will pick apart my following questions with all kinds of studies and facts, but here goes:
1) We don't live in a world (like they did in colonial days) where we hunted our food daily in order to feed our families, and were threatened by our European govts trying to control us and keep us captive by their totalitarian control.
2) As a nation, we are impulsive, and depressed, and arrogant, and violent, and lack all manner of self-discipline. Our first course of action when maligned in any way internally or externally is to destroy, even ourselves, and in the taking, bring as many people along with us as possible.
3) There are huge populations of our nation that, while their lack of felony records may not exlude them from gun ownership, but their reckless lifestyles, particularly regarding their offspring, make firearms needlessly available to children, who lack the maturity to LEAVE IT ALONE, thus causing countless "accidental" gun deaths. These statistics would skyrocket, should limits be lifted. Children would die -- killing each other -- because of unfettered access to guns. (I'm sure you'll tell me how low these incidents actually are -- proposterous).
4) The influence of media on the American psyche is astronomical, and unfathonable to the Founding Fathers who framed our Constitution. Anger, violence, retribution reigns. And you all actually think that lifting laws on gun ownership will have a positive effect on our society?
Honestly, I don't know that most of us are willing to take that chance. You can tweak the numbers and the stats all you want, but I don't believe for one minute that lifting gun laws in NY and DC would decrease crime. It's BECAUSE of the criminal mind which will do as it pleases that we MUST maintain order in a free society, and not believe that arming every citizen somehow makes us more human or more American.
Freedom as a Christian, as a human, or as an American, is in defined by whether we have the right to own a gun. I don't buy it. And I don't think the Framers would disagree with me either, if they lived in the world we have now.
I understand what you all are trying to say about the slippery slope of personal freedoms, and the gun laws being on an example of how the big bad govt takes our freedoms away. Maybe I don't trust human beings as much as you all do. Maybe I don't think it's logical to say that whether guns are lethal or not isn't the point -- it's whether we have a right to own them or not. A gun is not a knife, or a bat, or an ax, or anything else.
I have been a victim of a violent crime, and so have many people close to me. Even still, I don't believe that a gun in my hand would have changed the outcome of my life or of the lives of my friends / family in any way, even though some of them have had their lives destroyed by guns killing loved ones.
Sorry, but it's just my opinion...and it doesn't make me less of a conservative or a Republican, or a Christian.
Thanks for all the sharing..
I'll try to keep answers short. There is much more to say on each.
1) We don't live in a world (like they did in colonial days) where we hunted our food daily in order to feed our families, and were threatened by our European govts trying to control us and keep us captive by their totalitarian control.
You underestimate the number of people who DO hunt for food. As the issue is about rights, not food, we'll let this one pass.
Some would reasonably contend our own government does as much or more than European gov'ts did regarding oppression. The Declaration Of Independence sounds awfully familiar if you read it presuming "he" is "our current federal and state governments". Some would reasonably contend our government would be FAR more oppressive if it were not for some 80,000,000 gun owners. Waco, Ruby Ridge, New Orleans, etc. were notable cases where the gov't tried to be more oppressive but was slapped back hard (technically won, but at great price not willingly repeated).
2) As a nation, we are impulsive, and depressed, and arrogant, and violent, and lack all manner of self-discipline. Our first course of action when maligned in any way internally or externally is to destroy, even ourselves, and in the taking, bring as many people along with us as possible.
Par for the course of human history. If anything, we're better - as lynchings and other public killings, as much for public amusement as for retribution, are extremely rare now. The current Iraq war is striking in its lack of massive casualties; the deaths are not trivial, but nowhere near the mass destruction of wars past. Humans have always been terribly violent.
The fruits of peace we currently enjoy were arrived at with little or no weapons control. As gun control increases in an area, violence increases. People treat weapons with respect when they are familiar.
3) There are huge populations of our nation that, while their lack of felony records may not exlude them from gun ownership, but their reckless lifestyles, particularly regarding their offspring, make firearms needlessly available to children, who lack the maturity to LEAVE IT ALONE, thus causing countless "accidental" gun deaths. These statistics would skyrocket, should limits be lifted. Children would die -- killing each other -- because of unfettered access to guns. (I'm sure you'll tell me how low these incidents actually are -- proposterous).
Accidental gun deaths (real accidents, not bystander casualties) are astoundingly low. Swimming pools are 3 times deadlier. Cars are some 2 orders of magnitude more deadly.
Deliberate gun deaths, excluding suicides (who would manage to without guns, as Japan dramatically does), are half that of auto fatalities - which few ever fuss about. I hear references to "fatality crash" on the traffic news mentioned, and received, with no more concern than a roadside stall.
Much of the irresponsible behavior you refer to stems from a subculture that has zero sense of "gun safety" - enforced by near-total prohibitions, and absolutely no teaching of gun safety. The problem stems far beyond mere guns and well into a subculture of death, apathy, welfare and self-destruction.
4) The influence of media on the American psyche is astronomical, and unfathonable to the Founding Fathers who framed our Constitution. Anger, violence, retribution reigns. And you all actually think that lifting laws on gun ownership will have a positive effect on our society?
Haven't read much history, have you? The media influence is huge, yet the violence really is quite low. Subtract out subcultures (drugs, gangs) which have very high violence rates, and our country is extremely docile on the whole. Violence and retribution is common throughout history; we are certainly not unusually high.
Honestly, I don't know that most of us are willing to take that chance. You can tweak the numbers and the stats all you want, but I don't believe for one minute that lifting gun laws in NY and DC would decrease crime.
When Bernard Goetz famously shot his attackers, crime in NY dropped dramatically for days. Total bans in DC have resulted in the highest murder rate in the nation. FBI stats make it plain having a gun at least doubles your chance for surviving a violent encounter. Those states with the highest legal gun possession rates enjoy the lowest violent crime rates. Every state that has relaxed gun control has watched violent crime drop.
You may emotionally choose to ignore the facts, but that does not change them.
It's BECAUSE of the criminal mind which will do as it pleases that we MUST maintain order in a free society, and not believe that arming every citizen somehow makes us more human or more American.
Arming the law-abiding means that the law-abiding can stop crime right then and there - and not have to wait for police to come mop up the mess afterwards. Order is maintained, as Rudy notes, by stopping small problems from growing large - and, in our context, that means making sure that YOU can deter or stop an attacker before his attack is fulfilled.
Freedom as a Christian, as a human, or as an American, is in defined by whether we have the right to own a gun. I don't buy it.
Christ himself told his followers to get swords - not to go nuts being armed to the teeth, but certainly to have enough weaponry to deter attackers.
And I don't think the Framers would disagree with me either, if they lived in the world we have now.
Why? What has changed? They had thugs and murderers and rapists and tyrants then, just as we do now. Little has really changed. When attacked, it's still between you and your attacker - you can call in the police sooner, but they'll still show up after the attack.
I understand what you all are trying to say about the slippery slope of personal freedoms, and the gun laws being on an example of how the big bad govt takes our freedoms away. Maybe I don't trust human beings as much as you all do.
I don't trust other humans either - that's why I am prepared to deal with them, myself, immediately. Disarming good people won't stop the bad ones, it only encourages evildoers.
Maybe I don't think it's logical to say that whether guns are lethal or not isn't the point -- it's whether we have a right to own them or not. A gun is not a knife, or a bat, or an ax, or anything else.
I have significant training in fighting with guns, and knives, and bats, etc. Trust me, a gun is not significantly different.
I have been a victim of a violent crime, and so have many people close to me. Even still, I don't believe that a gun in my hand would have changed the outcome of my life or of the lives of my friends / family in any way, even though some of them have had their lives destroyed by guns killing loved ones.
Ah: the crux emerges! As a victim, you wish others to be disarmed so they cannot hurt you. Pardon my harshness... face it: you will NOT be able to sufficiently disarm criminals, who have perpetrated evil so long as humans existed. Gun control will not help.
Perhaps in your situation, a gun may not have helped you. Would you deny a gun to those would-be victims who WOULD be helped by having one? The criminals certainly don't care about disarmament laws, as they get most of their guns illegally anyway, and use other weapons just as frequently.