How Moral Is Capitalism?

Forbes ^ | 12 February 2007 | Rich Karlgaard

[mbraynard]

If you equate capitalism with 'might makes right', then you define capitalism by the opposite of what it is. It is the ultimate might-doesn't-make-right.

Rights are causal. The best example is the property right. Without the right, there would be no property.

Things that are moral lead to good (prosperity, joy, ectotropy, life). Things that are not moral lead to that which is not good (starvation, dispair, entropy, death). That is what defines morality. That is how God speaks to us in the way that He designed the universe.

[Sir Francis Dashwood]

It is the ultimate might-doesn't-make-right.

"Might makes right" is the law of nature, the law of the jungle beast.

Civilization provides the tools for the weakest to kill the strongest. "It is our wits that make us men." (Malcolm Wallace from the movie Braveheart.)

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Things that are moral lead to good (prosperity, joy, ectotropy, life). Things that are not moral lead to that which is not good (starvation, dispair, entropy, death). That is what defines morality. That is how God speaks to us in the way that He designed the universe.

Morality is rooted entirely in the presupposition some higher power defines what is correct for human behavior.

You made my point...

[NewLand]

They know capitalism will produce losers as well as winners

That was a quote from the article, that is not my statement or belief.

I agree with your comments...FYI.

[mbraynard]

Higher power? Is physics a higher power? It's not so literal. My point is you may be an agnostic or a non-Christian living on an island not yet reached by civilization and you will still inescapably face the consequences of either moral or immoral behavior.

So how do you define capitalism?

[Sir Francis Dashwood]

My point is you may be an agnostic or a non-Christian living on an island not yet reached by civilization and you will still inescapably face the consequences of either moral or immoral behavior.

Morality is rooted entirely in the presupposition some higher power defines what is correct for human behavior. An atheist can never make any claim to morality. An atheist who claims I am immoral is no different than a preacher or rabbi saying I am a sinner.

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So how do you define capitalism?

So long as someone is willing to pay, there will always be someone willing to collect... (Sir Francis Dashwood)

"There's a sucker born every minute." (P.T. Barnum)

[Lancey Howard]

Liberals are more skeptical. They know capitalism will produce losers....

Wrong. Liberals erroneously "believe" that capitalism produces losers, but that's stupid enough. I mean, how stupid do you have to be to believe that capitalism "produces" losers? Capitalism may expose losers for what they are naturally, but it cannot "produce" them.

[Lurker]

Capitalism may expose losers for what they are naturally, but it cannot "produce" them.

Give Mr. Howard a cigar.

L

[maui_hawaii]

Morality and Capitalism in my opinion go hand in hand.

The problem with capitalism though is most people think the only thing motivating it is sheer greed. I don't think so. Those who try capitalism with sheer greed at their roots fail miserably. Only those people who think of ways to save other people money, do things easier, make someone else's life easier, provide some comfort or luxury are the ones who make it.

Really and truly the motivation is adventure, or problem solving, or thinking about the other guy.

Doesn't it suck having to wash clothes by hand? Why not have an electric washing machine?

It saves time, effort, and is designed to make someone's life easier.

Getting rich is just the consquence of an otherwise noble cause. Getting rich is of course factored in there somewhere but its the ideas that serve the public that best that turn the dollars.

Fundamentally its totally moral.

I believe part of the problem arises though when men themselves are morally evil. Say an old time sawmill owner who was the only employer in town...and he used that position to do bad things such as exploit people, force people to work 7 days with no breaks, child labor, etc for people who had little other options...

When they act like Scrooge they are not following moral Biblical teachings to be 'just masters'...

Its from the latter of these two groups that the entire Democrat Party arose and a great deal of our current political divisions are over.

The problem is Democrats equate business to evil greediness. Then they go way over the edge and push it into hysteria and the next thing you know they are trying to redistribute the profits of oil companies.

Republicans though, although there are some who swing way on the other end of the nut spectrum into similar types of hysteria, in general realize that we NEED business. They also realize that not all businessmen are evil greedy SOBs looking to screw the little guy at every turn and that they do good in the world.

Republicans in general are much more appropriately balanced in their views in my opinion.

[LowCountryJoe]

You've written those same last two lines on five separate occasions in this one thread...so far. As I read what your definition of capitalism is, I cannot help but think that you are missing the vital purpose as to why people transact with one another. And it isn't because we're all suckers, either.

Yes or no, are you hostile to capitalism? If so, what is your preferred economic system and why?

[Hardastarboard]

Thanks for enlightening me on the "Can we vote ourselves into slavery?" question. I hadn't read any threads with that in them, as much as I hang here.

The real question is what do we do when a bunch of mental midgets fall for the Democrats' (and too many Republicans') empty promises of largesse from the government coffers, permanent protection from criminals, invaders, and life's other uncertainties, and vote to enslave us all by electing representatives who will enslave us all.

I've read the Claire Wolf quote, and actually used that with somebody yesterday. This whole line of conversation is dangerous, but it has to be held now rather than later. And this is way too public a place to do so, as you're both aware.

I don't really want to have that conversation, but the neo-Marxist elitists who run our country are backing everything I know and love into a tighter and tighter corner.

[Lurker]

The real question is what do we do when a bunch of mental midgets fall for the Democrats' (and too many Republicans') empty promises of largesse from the government coffers, permanent protection from criminals, invaders, and life's other uncertainties, and vote to enslave us all by electing representatives who will enslave us all.

You already know the answer to that one my friend.

L

[photodawg]

Taking from those who produce at the point of a gun to give to the nonproductive is patently immoral.
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Which is why the 2nd amendment is oh so important, and oh so hated by the liberal establishment. Its time for a tax revolt in this country, by the way. As the democratics discuss defunding the war and further subverting the constitution, the people should implement a little defunding of their own. What say you?

[napscoordinator]

You might be right. I think I have only read on of them....maybe two. And if conservatives have not read them then we can assume that the rest of them haven't.

[Sir Francis Dashwood]

You've written those same last two lines on five separate occasions in this one thread...so far. As I read what your definition of capitalism is, I cannot help but think that you are missing the vital purpose as to why people transact with one another.

I am not missing a thing.

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Yes or no, are you hostile to capitalism?

Capitalism is a natural order... So long as someone is willing to pay, there will always be someone willing to collect...

From feudalism evolved socialism (i.e., Marxism), then capitalism...

The phony Marxist analysis has capitalism evolving from feudalism, then to socialism.

I despise Marxists and I also despise Cultural Marxism.

All cultures are not equal, despite what liberal-tarians claim. Liberal-tarians are big liars. The road to economic Marxism is paved with their Cultural Marxism.

To give you an example, the liberal-tarian stink tank Americans for Tax Reform and Grover Norquist. An IRS 501c tax-exempt corporation is corporate welfare where Norquist gets his cushy salary. He has been running around pushing homosexual monogamy, opposition to the war, and other lunatic liberal causes.

One is hardly a capitalist if your tax-exempt corporation is on corporate welfare. My solution: Amend the Internal Revenue Code (preferably get rid of it) to require periodic, mandatory drug testing for all paid employees of "non-profit" organizations. Watch all these left wing front groups fold overnight...

[Sir Francis Dashwood]

Which is why the 2nd amendment is oh so important, and oh so hated by the liberal establishment.

Which is why I'll never vote for Julie-Annie...

[photodawg]

The very concept of whether or not we can vote ourselves into slavery is paradoxical. Certainly I am able to vote against my own freedom. I may even be foolish enough to do so. The real philosophical disconnect comes in whether I can vote to deprive another man of his freedom. I believe that the Founding Fathers would have answered with a resounding "NO!", but they weren't foolish enough to believe that we would never do that. That's why our government is a republic, NOT a democracy.

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A little discussed issue when observing the state of the constitution 2007 is that initially the founding fathers only gave the right to vote to free male property owners. That has since been amended(smile). I don't have problems amending the free male part, but the property owner issue has amazing possibilities. If we were to redefine "property" as the ability to pay tax to support government operations, and only allow tax payers to vote, you would have a government much closer to the one the founding fathers envisioned.
Amazingly, only fifty percent of wage earners pay any tax. Obviously, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the majority of voters have no stake in wealth creation. Wealth creation, however, is totally what runs the government and enables it to enforce the voters wishes. The democrats have seized power by pandering to this class of non productive individual voters and "buying their votes. This costs these voters nothing and reaps them great rewards. We vote in our self interest. Taxpayers want the government to spend less more wisely. Non taxpayers want the government to take more from the taxpayers and give it to them. This is a situation that will destroy a free society. Freedom is not free, it must be earned. Those that don't contribute should not vote .

What can the taxpayer do? Quite simple....revolt. We are not obligated to pay tax The founding fathers said our rights are God given. No government has a right to take our freedom. We hold much more power than we realize. A small minority of revolting taxpayers can make their concerns very apparent to our servants in government. Since we can never go back to property voting laws, tax revolt is the only way to put a halt to democratic tyranny.

[photodawg]

That was a quote from the article, that is not my statement or belief.

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I understand that, I was just responding to my problems with his analysis.

[photodawg]

Which is why I'll never vote for Julie-Annie...


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LOL!

[LowCountryJoe]

Hell yes you're missing something, you're missing that fact that people transact with one another to mutually benefit from the exchange after the completion of the transaction.

But you keep going on with your Savage-esque mockery of words and names without a genuine answer to the questions if it helps you from actually taking a stance.

[Sir Francis Dashwood]

...you're missing that fact that people transact with one another to mutually benefit from the exchange after the completion of the transaction.

"There's a sucker born every minute." (P.T. Barnum)

A quote from a great capitalist....