Are the Right People Becoming Teachers? ( Teachers are NOT Professionals)

EdNews.org ^ | January 9,2007 | Martin Haberman

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http://ftp.ets.org/pub/gre/994994.pdf

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Very interesting.,,,especially pages 18,19, and 20. I book marked it for future use.

[RavenATB]

"So what I still see here is a desire to demonize public school teachers."

Here's the problem with your complaint:

Public school teachers are so conjoined through their union, and through their politics, that when people start complaining about what might be categorized as "a large but unspecified" number of public school teachers, it really seems to be taken by P/S teachers as an attack on the entire group. Again, look at the reaction to John Stossel's report. Stossel wasn't condemning the entire group of P/S teachers, but "some" in the group, mixed with a lot of negative info about "the system."

But, the response, to the average American who watched the report, seemed to be a rather unanimous outcry of condemnation of Stossel. I know that some teachers agreed with the report. However, they seemed rather mute in public comment. I'm sure that had Stossel had a handful of teachers and NEA members standing behind him in support, he'd have shown the video.

However, that group of responsible, conscientious, honest teachers who put the best interest of children ahead of the union and "the system"...must have been grading papers, or bowling. They had an opportunity to stand up for the kids and show that not all teachers agree with the union thugs we saw on TV. But...

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grade records

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Grades? We never used them. The children never took a standardized test until applying to graduate school. ( at age 18)

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Public school education is inversely proportionate to the growth of the NEA.

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Eva, even without the NEA government teachers would NOT be professionals. They aren't and can't because they do not meet any of the criteria listed by Martin Haberman in his article. ( see lead post)

Also, a trade is something that can be done by an enthusiastic amateur ( example: cabinet maker). A profession is a skill that can't be done by an amateur, no matter how enthusiastic. ( bridge architect, brain surgery)

Teaching has many, many examples ( by the thousands) of enthusiastic amateurs doing a great job. ( homeschoolers and uncredentialed private school teachers) Therefore, teaching is a trade.

[SoftballMominVA]

That's your opinion.

[RobbyS]

IQ scores indicate that they are on the same level as military officers. The GRE score is a reflection of the quality of instruction the teachers get in the high school and college.

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By the way, how do I contact the managers regarding "abuse"?

I would like to speak with them directly about what does and does not constitute "abuse".

[RavenATB]

"IQ scores indicate that they are on the same level as military officers."

IQ and achievement are two very different things. As someone who has been successful in both fields, I can tell you that there is simply no comparison.

[wintertime]

Found the contact info on the Home Page.

[RobbyS]

If you have been both then you should know that schools don't want officer material in the classroom. By and large they treat teachers as an enlisted class, but more like WACS than today's enlisted.

[Scotswife]

"Amusing attempt. Of course, you know the consequence of not paying income taxes in the US. Many people have protested by not paying, and gone to jail for it. So, you teachers are going to go to jail if you refuse to pay your union dues?"

first of all...I'm not a teacher.
The dues come right out of the paycheck - it is withheld.
So in order to "refuse to pay" the teacher will have to hire a lawyer and begin a legal battle.
There isn't a way to recoup the legal costs as it appears in cases where the teachers do fight it, they are fighting for the right to divert the funds to some other cause.

So...unless the teacher is independently wealthy - it can be difficult to prevent this confiscation of wages.

"I've yet to see a single demonstration about the way union dues are coerced from you, or the way that money is used."

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean there aren't teachers out there fighting it.
Maybe you just aren't looking hard enough?

Here are examples of teachers fighting the confiscation of dues....

http://www.eagleforum.ort/psr/1998/may98/psrmay98.html
http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/edu/hedcew5-24.000/hedcew5-24.htm
http://www.aclj.org/Issues/FAQs/Question.aspx?ID=319
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200701/CUL20070125b.html
http://www.action.org/ppolicy/comment/article.php?id=96

I know some teachers didn't pay much attention to the problem until the NEA publicly supported "choice" at the pro-abort march in Washington.
BTW - I know a public school principal who traveled to DC for the march to protest with the pro-lifers.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040419-124027-8621r.htm
http://www.nrlc.org/news/2004/NRL05/teachersprotest_nea.htm

Here is a pro-life teachers association...
http://www.teacherssavingchildren.org/

[Scotswife]

let me see if I can fix the broken links...

http://www.eagleforum.org/psr/1998/may98/psrmay98.html
http://nrlc.org/news/2004/NRL05/teachers_protest_nea.htm

[Scotswife]

"Scotswife,
I have read every word of Raven's post #383. There is not one word of name calling."

I never said Raven was namecalling...that 's why I stated I was not directing "my" rant at Raven.

[Scotswife]

"Scotswife, I use that phrase, and I have never called **ALL** government teachers stupid, greedy, and evil."

I must be confused...I thought you had, and I thought you wanted them all to refuse to show up to work.

[Scotswife]

Dang!
Let's see if this one will work this time...

http://www.acton.org/ppolicy/comment/article.php?id=96

[RavenATB]

That's not really the point. Certainly, there are scattered exceptions within the 'education community.' I've stipulated to that all along. The point is that people's perceptions of teachers is colored by what they see as common behavior and choices of the group.

What I haven't seen, and you've yet to provide me, is any evidence of a significant portion of the large group of public school teachers who are willing to openly and publicly stand, en mass, against the NEA and their politics.

In particular, I note the lack of any significant number of P/S teachers who are willing to go public and demand that teachers be tested for competence and/or held accountable for their actions, and that the NEA stop protecting those teachers who abuse and/or fail to educate kids.

Teachers are being lumped together as a group in the negative comments you read and hear, because P/S teachers appear, in the public eye, to be of one mind on the major issues shaping public opinion of P/S today.

[Scotswife]

"That's not really the point. Certainly, there are scattered exceptions within the 'education community.' I've stipulated to that all along"

I was responding to this statement you made earlier....

"I've yet to see a single demonstration about the way union dues are coerced from you, or the way that money is used."

Now...the articles I posted may not constitute a "demonstration"...but I think what those teachers are doing is much more effective than demonstrations - they are fighting the court battle and trying to prove the case of the unconstitutional and illegal nature of what the NEA is doing.

"What I haven't seen, and you've yet to provide me, is any evidence of a significant portion of the large group of public school teachers who are willing to openly and publicly stand, en mass, against the NEA and their politics."

Well...I'm sorry to disappoint. I believe I already stipulated that the liberals are in the majority.
You have those who are afraid to bite the hand that feeds them, and you have many who aren't aware of the issues at all as they don't take the time to inform themselves.

One of the articles I posted described teachers fighting the NEA in the state of Washington and won.
It gave a figure of the drastic drop in the number of teachers supporting the NEA.
That may not be a "demonstration", but I think what they just did is much more affective.

"In particular, I note the lack of any significant number of P/S teachers who are willing to go public and demand that teachers be tested for competence and/or held accountable for their actions, and that the NEA stop protecting those teachers who abuse and/or fail to educate kids."

Hopefully the battle being fought over dues will pressure the NEA to make these changes as well.
Right now the dues fight is over politics.
It is a sad part of human nature that people tend to "protect their own"...we've seen it not only with teachers, but with police, politicians, and even priests.

How can the NEA be convinced it is in their own self interest to hang incompetents out to dry?
That's a tough one because the process ensures that the union assumes the teacher's innocence until proven guilty.
Administration is viewed as "the enemy", and the poor teacher is being unfairly picked on.
This is very difficult for administrators to combat without very strong proof.

I do know of two cases however...where the proof was strong against teachers that the local union rep chose to not "fight the fight"

"Teachers are being lumped together as a group in the negative comments you read and hear, because P/S teachers appear, in the public eye, to be of one mind on the major issues shaping public opinion of P/S today."

Of course they are, because even when there are teachers who do fight...is the MSM going to report it?
No.
It is too bad Stossel didn't interview teachers who are taking on the issue of dues.
Maybe he'll get around to it.

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I must be confused...I thought you had, and I thought you wanted them all to refuse to show up to work.

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In this entire nation, there must be some functional government schools.

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What I haven't seen, and you've yet to provide me, is any evidence of a significant portion of the large group of public school teachers who are willing to openly and publicly stand, en mass, against the NEA and their politics.

I don't see them marching for rational reading or math programs, sensible grouping of children by ability, or sound discipline practices in the schools. Instead we see illiterates and innumerates passed along by teachers and principals and being awarded dipolmas. We see slovenly and ill-mannered children attending their schools.

As you pointed out, teachers manage to organize rallies to support illegal immigration. We saw them and their abortion buttons on the TV at the Democratic National Convention. So...I do conclude that they can organize about things important to them. It does seem that effective reading and math methods, and orderly schools are NOT important enough to them.

I hear plenty of complaints about the lack of classroom management techniques found in the nation's colleges of education, but, I don't see teachers marching to change this.

In particular, I note the lack of any significant number of P/S teachers who are willing to go public and demand that teachers be tested for competence and/or held accountable for their actions, and that the NEA stop protecting those teachers who abuse and/or fail to educate kids.

I don't see teachers marching or organizing to see that incompetents never make it into the teaching trade, or to throw the lazy, incompetent, or evil teachers out.

Instead, teachers insist that the general public go to the school board. Huh? Why on earth should the general public be supervising their so-called "profession"? If they were a TRUE profession, they would be doing the supervising, and setting the standards for educational practice. I surely don't see them doing this.

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Well...I'm sorry to disappoint. I believe I already stipulated that the liberals are in the majority.
You have those who are afraid to bite the hand that feeds them, and you have many who aren't aware of the issues at all as they don't take the time to inform themselves.

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The evil, greedy, and stupid....(sigh)

So why do teachers ( who should know better) cooperate with this, prop up this dysfunction, and perpetuate the practices of the evil, greedy, and stupid? Where are they? If teachers have the capacity to organize themselves to attend anti-immigration rallies, and get themselves elected at delegates to the Democratic Convention, why aren't they using their time to change factors the effect REAL children. Where are they?