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Dawkins actually alludes to measuring a universe without God in an interview that I blogged about last fall. (on NPR)

I checked out the link, hocndoc. Which side of the debate was you? :^) As for whether it's possible to "measure a universe without God": I'm simple-minded; so I just look at it this way.

Many scientific materialists a/k/a/ "physicalists" or "methodoligical/(metaphysical) naturalists" are committed to the idea of the evolution or development of the universe by means of a more or less random process involving "matter." ("Matter" itself has yet to be rigorously defined; but no matter!)

Now what I want to know is, if this is so, then where did the universal laws of nature come from? Where did reason come from? Where did logic come from? If "accidental matter" supposedly produced these things via the evolutionary process, then why should we trust them? I mean, if they're "yesterday's or today's accident," then maybe "tomorrow's accident" will change them into something other than what they are. (I.e., they wouldn't be universals, but just other parts of contingent, finite nature and thus ill-suited to be "measuring rods" by which we may discern the truths of reality.)

If these "measuring rods" of the universe are the products of random processes, again, why should we trust them? And if we can't trust them, then why should we trust science itself -- which is preeminently a grand edifice raised on the foundations of law, reason, and logic?

Now consider that one of the Names of the Son of God is Logos -- which provides the etymological root for the English word "logic." This is no accident! God tells us He created the universe by speaking His Logos, His Word of Truth, "in the Beginning." By His Logos, His Son, were all things made, in heaven and on earth. Thus the universe itself is shot through with divine law, and logic, and reason -- which is why the universe is understandable to those beings who also possess reason and logic, and have begun to discover that there really are laws embedded in the natural world that did not have a "natural" origin.

If matter and "natural" have become associated in many minds today (as seems to be the case), then to the extent that we recognize that law, logic, and reason are not material entities, then we would have to say they are "super-natural."

And I do say that! FWIW

Thanks so much for writing, hocndoc, and for the link!

Science assumes a rational universe. Science got the idea from Christianity, which, intellectually speaking, is a blend of Hellenism and Judaism. Islam. by the way, reduces it all to God's WILL. Hence, it could not produce science.

That post is one example of the many reasons why I am so looking forward to reading your book! Our Christ has been working into me more knowledge of rational judgment and its authority over the passions/emotions/appetites. All that you wrote above, betty boop, comes into line with these things, with my readings and His Spirit-teachings, working all together for good to me (I love Him and I am Called)! His Spirit is Wisdom, God-with-God in the beginning, and is our glorious Savior, Jesus Christ! By such doxa we present ourselves as truly rational in a rational universe, governed by the Law of Wisdom, for God is All-Wise and our Creator. We have been born again of His Spirit and live of, by and in the Truth, amen! Thank you so much for including me in the ping to these posts, for they are speaking to me the Voice of Wisdom in ways which you yourself could not know, but God knows!

Beautiful posts! Thank you!

If matter and "natural" have become associated in many minds today (as seems to be the case), then to the extent that we recognize that law, logic, and reason are not material entities, then we would have to say they are "super-natural."

Indeed. But the atheists seem to want to pick and choose which non-corporeal existents they will allow in their "reality." Among these are physical laws, logic, some but not all mathematics, and scientific theories which do not upset their worldview.

But they often exclude the mind or consciousness except as an epiphenomenon, a secondary phenomenon which can cause nothing to happen. Naturally they also exclude the soul or spirit and most especially, God.

Such atheism is not simply disbelief – it is a willful fabrication of a "reality." And the only cause I can see for such behavior is open rebellion against the One they know exists but are unwilling to accept. IMHO, it is a "captain of my ship, master of my destiny" syndrome - self-will run awry.