A Mission to Convert (Dawkin's "God Delusion")

New York Book Review ^ | January 11, 2007 | H. Allen Orr

[trisham]

Once you introduce the concept of "right and wrong" or "good and evil" you have introduced a "something else" into the universe, like rules of game that both parties acknowledge are in existence. Sure, the parties may quarrel as to whether one side or the other adhered to "the rules," but they acknowledge the existence of the rules nonetheless.

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Exactly. Well said.

[Alamo-Girl]

I can't help but be amused that Dawkins invests so much time and energy "proving" the non-existence of God. Why is it the "God is Dead" crowd seem so nervous, so anxious, when they assert the body is safely in its coffin, dead and buried? Most undertakers I know simply take it for granted that the body lying in the coffin is, in fact, quite effectively "dead": It's not like you have to keep on checking!

LOLOL! That is quite telling, IMHO. If they really believed what they were saying, they'd act differently.

Thank you for your excellent posts!

[itsamelman]

Wish I could claim it as my own. Praphrasing C.S. Lewis (to the best of my recollection - it's been a while....).

[trisham]

Wish I could claim it as my own. Praphrasing C.S. Lewis (to the best of my recollection - it's been a while....).

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I'm impressed that you could remember it so clearly. I can barely remember what I had for breakfast. :)

[MarineBrat]

[MB>..he argues that rearing children in a religious tradition amounts to child abuse.

[SF>I've got to agree with this statement. Raising children this way amounts to brainwashing...

Raising kids in a religious tradition is brain washing? I'd sure hate to have to go through life thinking like that. I would far rather my children believe in God than helieving in the trash presented to them in our "modern" secular society every day. I've always told any of those friends of mine (we're all astronomers, so there's several of them) who claim to be athiest that they're really not atheistic because, as any good scientist, they don't deny the possibility of God.

I tell them that they're really agnostics, to which some of them make some resistance, but yet like anyone with a reasonable amount of sense, they can't deny that God "may" be a reality, and that teaching children moral values through a system of religion can be a very powerful tool for the advancement of a content society. It has never much mattered to me what they "say" they believe in, as much as what they honestly hope for. And nobody I know hopes to die, rot, and have that be the end of it.

Also, to those who present the most resistance to the acceptance of God as a system of belief, I point out to them that even if there isn't a God, I would still prefer a life lived as if there is a God, because as far as I'm concerned my right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness comes from my creator and none else. As soon as I accept that my rights come from Man's government then I accept that my rights are not my own and can wax and wane based on the whims of the voting block that defines government.

If the voters vote in a democracy to say that you're a slave, is it wrong? If there's no God, and you accept that there's no God, then you have no right to claim right nor wrong. I say there's a God, God or no God!

[itsamelman]

That book had a BIG impact on me. I know I just ate half a bagel, but lasts night's dinner is a mystery [and not just because my wife cooked... ;^) ]

[trisham]

but lasts night's dinner is a mystery [and not just because my wife cooked... ;^) ]

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I rarely cook, because I have a stong streak of self-preservation. :)

[Alamo-Girl]

Beautiful posts! Thank you!

If matter and "natural" have become associated in many minds today (as seems to be the case), then to the extent that we recognize that law, logic, and reason are not material entities, then we would have to say they are "super-natural."

Indeed. But the atheists seem to want to pick and choose which non-corporeal existents they will allow in their "reality." Among these are physical laws, logic, some but not all mathematics, and scientific theories which do not upset their worldview.

But they often exclude the mind or consciousness except as an epiphenomenon, a secondary phenomenon which can cause nothing to happen. Naturally they also exclude the soul or spirit and most especially, God.

Such atheism is not simply disbelief – it is a willful fabrication of a "reality." And the only cause I can see for such behavior is open rebellion against the One they know exists but are unwilling to accept. IMHO, it is a "captain of my ship, master of my destiny" syndrome - self-will run awry.

[Alamo-Girl]

Praise God!!! Thank you oh so very much for your testimony!

And thank you for linking to our book, Timothy!

[muawiyah]

More like "Ice 9".

On the other hand these guys gave detailed instructions and presumably others will be able to replicate, or debunk, the results they found.

[Psycho_Bunny]

There's nothing worse than an atheist or a religionist that's never understood the word "ineffable".

[muawiyah]

Means either "can't be said" or "you are not allowed to say it".

[betty boop]

Such atheism is not simply disbelief – it is a willful fabrication of a "reality." And the only cause I can see for such behavior is open rebellion against the One they know exists but are unwilling to accept.

So very true: A willful fabrication of a "reality" -- indeed, a second reality. People who construct second realities like this are never satisfied until they get everybody else on-board. Dawkins' atheist second reality is a great case in point. But second realities can be of many different kinds (e.g., global warming, animal rights, gay rights, the "pro-choice" position, etc. What they all have in common is a "missionary spirit," and often, a commitment to ridiculing (or censoring) conflicting points of view and those who hold them.

We see this all around us today. Most of the "public din" is emanating from the denizens of second realities....

Sigh. So much "noise." It's all heat and no light.... I just wish these silly savages would get a life so we can have some public peace.

Thank you so much for writing, Alamo-Girl! And thank you for your wonderful posts today!

[betty boop]

His Spirit is Wisdom, God-with-God in the beginning, and is our glorious Savior, Jesus Christ! By such doxa we present ourselves as truly rational in a rational universe, governed by the Law of Wisdom, for God is All-Wise and our Creator. We have been born again of His Spirit and live of, by and in [His] Truth, amen!

AMEN! Thank you for your beautiful witness, .30Carbine!

[Sorry i couldn't stop myself from making that one tiny edit.... :^) ]

[betty boop]

Betty, I remember my very first post to you, several years ago. Dawkins was the subject then too!

LOLOL! deja vu all over again!

Actually, he seems to get more and more strident with the passage of time. I wonder if he can imagine that some people think he's just plain silly when he takes up this subject. He kinda reminds me of a honking donkey, once he gets off on the subject of God....

Second realities are simply illusions. I haven't got a clue why anyone would choose to live in an illusion, and then demand that everybody else come join him there.

As Montgomery said, "his is an intellectual malady conspicuous among our intelligentsia: the modernist mind presuming intellectual autonomy beyond limit." Actually, I think this is a malady of the spirit more so than of the mind. But a disordered spirit will manifest as a disordered mind....

FWIW

Thanks for writing beckett, and for the trip down memory lane!

[Psycho_Bunny]

Yes......?

[betty boop]

Rationally we may conclude from this and many other evidences that we do not yet see and experience God's Will being done on earth as it already is being done in Heaven. That's my conclusion anyway. It is not that the Great and Glorious Creator does not know of or superintend over all that transpires, as if anything could take God by surprise, but rather that in His Overarching Plan we do not yet see all things brought under His Dominion and Righteousness.

Evidently it is God's Will to gather His children to Himself out of sheer love for them, here on earth and in heaven. God is love: "Who lives in love lives in God and God in him."

Allah is pure will; there is no love there. As such he's more akin to the fallen angels. He asks men to die for him, not live with him in harmonious accord.

Thank you for your wonderful insights, dear .30carbine!

[Alamo-Girl]

Beautifully said, both of you!

[LeGrande]

--I have talked to God. Does that make me a liar?--

Did God talk back to you?

I wonder how many of the rest of the posters talk to God?

[hosepipe]

[ Actually, I think this is a malady of the spirit more so than of the mind. But a disordered spirit will manifest as a disordered mind... ]

Wise words.. because Dawkins and Evolution(Evos) generally assault the Holy Spirit more than they assault Jesus and humanity and Judeo-Christian logic and Salvation Physics..

The result is, if man is a primate then whats all this talk of Angels and Holy Spirits; but fable..

And if no Holy Spirit or Angel then man has no spirit either..
Thats the message preached.. on pulpits of flesh..
When your body dies you are road kill, get used to it..
Eat drink and be merry for.... some tomorrow you WILL DIE...