Posted on 01/01/2007 4:25:08 PM PST by yochanan
God has no more interest in the Jews than He has in the Norwegians (or any other nation).
Please, puh-leeze. ;>)
The Bible explicitly states Yahweh and Yeshua are Zionists...
I don't disagree. Fact is, there are thousands of Christians suffering tribulation for Christ right now in parts of the world.
That's enough for me.
Interesting. I've often wondered.....
Marvin Rosenthal, Renald Showers and Robert Van Kampen have written convincing arguments regarding the Pre-Wrath position but I believe Jesus Himself sent us an even greater message when He went through His own Tribulation. Are we not the Body of Christ?
All the more reason why I support Israel in these last days.
I believe that the "Left Behind" series is a great work of fiction but the unintended consequences will catch the Church unprepared for what is to come. But God in His Wisdom will use even these errors for His Glory.
RIGHT ON!!!!
Preach it Brother!!!!
Jesus is our Arc and our passover Lamb and the Bride of Christ is not appointed to the wrath of God, because of what Jesus did on the Cross. The Bride is covered by the spotless lamb of God and the sins of the bride are as far away from God as is the West from the East. The Bride of Christ, the Church, is not appointed unto judgement.
DING-DING-DING we have a winner :)
They will .. but they are under a different covenant than we are. We have a better covenant made of better promises.
"I believe that the "Left Behind" series is a great work of fiction"
I agree with you there. The whole thing from beginning to end is the greatest fiction since Das Kapital. It's nothing but a paean to the nonsense called Dispensational Premillennialism. It was invented in the 19th century and is nothing but crap.
Are you making the point that the Church is covered by Christ and so will not be part of the tribulation? If that is the case why were Peter and Paul both martyred? Would they not have earned coverage? What about all the other martyred Christians?
I don't KNOW all the answers. I don't know if the Great Tribulation is itself considered a judgement. But there are judgements that will be poured out during the GT. "IF" there is no rapture, I think its possible that Christians might very well be spared these judgement bowls, but I don't think they'll be immune to there affects.
My strongest leading on this whole issue of rapture or not, is that I have always been brought up with the teachings of a rapture. But do a search of your Bible and NO WHERE is there a mention of it. First off the word isn't ever used, but the word has become part of modern Christian lexicon. Mention the word in secular circles, that don't have exposure Christian circles, and the thought that comes to mind is of joyful experience. But say the word rapture to Christians, and one thing only comes to mind. Why is that, for a word that isn't mentioned in the Bible?
There could be some arguments made that its alluded to, but John in talking about things in Revelations didn't allude to anything else, he gave clear picture representation.
For me it comes down to this. First and foremost: The teachings for or against a rapture have nothing to do with salvation. So that means they are secondary. Secondly: The Bible tells us what to look for at the end times (which I feel we are in) , and to be prepared. Be prepared for what? To meet Christ in the air? HALLELUIAH!!!! Or is it that time is running out? That the fields are ripe for harvest.
Paul said it best: to live is Christ to die is gain. For this discussion: to live is Christ (to do the work of Christ) to rapture is my gain.
If Christians view the end times with the mindset that time is running out, and a warning of what's to come, then they can step up Christ's work, and strengthen their faith in light of the coming tribulations.
But if Christians view the end times strictly for the rapture, they're totally absorbed in they're own impending joy.
What are the consequences for the person who is wrong in this debate? For the non rapture believer-POOF you're with Christ and Halleluiah. For the rapture believer they are constantly looking for Christ to not only deliver them, but remove them from the different tribulations. Never giving thought to preparing their hearts for the onslaught thats going to attack their faith.
Christ knew what awaited him at the cross. What did he do? He took his disciples to the garden with him, to pray with and for him. To prepare his heart for what was to come.
If God chooses to remove me from whats to come, wonderful. But, my saviour faced unbelievable agony. Should I expect any less for myself?
I desire a rapture that would painless remove me from whats to come, and put me in Gods glory (meant with all humility, as Gods glory also terrifies me) . But I also desire to be worthy of what other Christians endured and still brought glory to God.
"Please, puh-leeze. ;>)"
Please what, bud? Need some help with something?
The Jews are not God's chosen people, Israel is God's chosen people. The Jews are only PART of Israel, 1/12 part in fact as the Jews are only those from the tribe of Judah. There are 11 more tribes. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses were not Jews they were Hebrews. Big difference. Read your history. Read 2 Kings 17 for a start.
So you might ask what happened to the other tribes and their people. The answer to that is given in Gen. 35 when Jacob is told he would become a great nation AND A COMPANY OF NATIONS.
I meant that if, for whatever reason, God allows the current nation of Israel to disappear from the world, then the government of that region does not need our support. He allowed the nation of Israel to disappear from 77 AD to 1946 AD.
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