Posted on 01/01/2007 4:25:08 PM PST by yochanan
Even if the "petros" DID refer to Peter, the person of Peter and his gospel confession of Jesus as the Christ are inseparable, when Jesus talks about what the church is founded on.
My point is that Jesus said HE would build HIS church. I understand as well as anyone the problems and failures of the church. However, I was responding to an assertion that the church is "manmade" for the sake of preserving some wall eyed and unbiblical assertion that current residents of Palestine are somehow entitled to covenant promises. Maybe the claim was made in haste or used poorly chosen words. If so, she deserves the benefit of the doubt.
However, the claim, left standing alone, is blasphemous. Christ is building his church, not man.
Even if the "petros" DID refer to Peter, the person of Peter and his gospel confession of Jesus as the Christ are inseparable, when Jesus talks about what the church is founded on.
My point is that Jesus said HE would build HIS church. I understand as well as anyone the problems and failures of the church. However, I was responding to an assertion that the church is "manmade" for the sake of preserving some wall eyed and unbiblical assertion that current residents of Palestine are somehow entitled to covenant promises. Maybe the claim was made in haste or used poorly chosen words. If so, she deserves the benefit of the doubt.
However, the claim, left standing alone, is blasphemous. Christ is building his church, not man.
Neither do you, unless you believe that Judas Iscariot will be on some throne. You believe that the 12 were not the "literal" 12 in front of him. So you are not "literal," either, but simply change where you apply the symbolism.
Or in James 1:1 when James wrote to the 12 tribes scattered abroad, he wasn't really writing to the 12 tribes scattered abroad.
Or that you have misinterpreted what the 12 tribes are, and misunderstand the nature of the grafting in of the Gentiles, so that Gentile Christians are EVERY BIT AS MUCH a part of the 12 tribes as a descendant of Abraham. That is the historic understanding of the people of faith for about 2000 years, now.
Oh, year and what about the statement Jesus made, "I came ONLY for the lost sheep of the HOUSE OF ISRAEL" aka the ten lost tribes.
Problem number one, these tribes were not "lost" at the time of this utterance of Jesus. There was a remnant of people who never left Israel, who had stayed in the land and intermarried with the heathen and adopted a syncretistic religion. They called them "Samaritans." Your understanding of the history of what happened in the diaspora is woefully woefully inadequate. Furthermore, the dispersal of peoples around the ancient world did NOT destroy their identity as sons of Abraham. These people established ethnic enclaves, set up synagogues, and kept their identity ALL OVER THE MEDITERRANEAN BASIN. The idea that the "Jews" only referred to Judah descendants and that those synagogues all over the Roman empire were populated only by descendants of Judah is just silly, and historically inaccurate. Many of them did lose their ethnic identity altogether, but others did not. To conjure up some weird idea of 10 lost tribes migrating to America, or that the 10 lost tribes are in reality gentiles who just think they are gentiles but really are physical descendants of Abraham belongs out there with the wack job tracts like "Chariots of the Gods?" or "None Dare call it Conspiracy."
Sorry, but Christianity has enough navel gazing, self-flagellating, run-to-the-hills-because-the-end-of-the-world-is-here, weird and ignorant sects ALREADY, without adding one more to the mix.
"and the gates of hell will not prevail against it..." should then be emended to include "but Constantine and the Nicean council will bury it!"????
I think not.
"and the gates of hell will not prevail against it..." should then be emended to include "but Constantine and the Nicean council will bury it!"????
I think not.
Of course not silly, you and I are here today, aren't we. We are just in different processes of walking in scriptural truths.
You should look at your post and see how silly it really looks.
Perhaps you might want to read the Book again sometime.
"...upon this Rock I will build my Church"
You don't get it, you won't get it, you don't want to get it.
That is how it looks from here.
Now I gotta go read this entire thread in order to see what else has been going on here over the last week or so.
"See Jeremiah 31:33
Do a little work if you want to have a little knowledge."
I thought I had been working, and enjoying every minute of it, but I see it hasn't been enough. Thank you for quoting Jeremiah 31:33. It does make the point beautifully. Now, for me, it's back to work.
The unifying theme of cranks, weirdos, extremist sects, and general nutjobs in Christianity (and there has been a marvelous panoply of examples) is their uniform insistence that "all the others" have missed this, and they are standing in a corner bawling out truth to those who will not open their stubborn, sinful eyes to accept it. They have "discovered" (or rediscovered) a "lost" truth, and there is no convincing them otherwise. "They" after all control the printing presses, and have re-written history, suppressed the truth, and blinded the entire human race for 2000 years, until "Professor" whatsisname found the truth, which "they" don't want you to see.
Of course there are remnants of Hebraic culture and JHVH worship in the dispersed nations! It is what you would expect if the people were scattered across the face of the earth. Moreover, I believe with Don Richardson (author of "Peace Child") that God builds "redemptive analogies" into people groups, many of which are carryovers from the diaspora.
This doesn't make me a "Romanist," or a "papist" or any other of those charges, any more than it makes radio transmissions the aliens send through dental fillings subject to FCC rulings.
There are actually over 100 documented examples of postulated people groups who have been claimed to be the "Lost Tribes" of Israel. The problem is, that there are serious theologians and historians who, like Cotton Mather for example, believed that God preserved His memory throughout the diaspora and may have mixed the Israelites with the native peoples of America, for example. He is claimed in support of some of the wack job proponents of "lost tribe - ism" but anyone who has actually READ Cotton Mather (rather than simply assumed the proof texting was honest)will know that he believed no such thing. (he did, however, predict the end of the world in 1697). He did cite favorably some of the works of Thomas Thorowgood ("Jewes in America"), who had "Christianized" the works of Manasseh ben Israel, a Jewish Rabbi who declared that the American Indians were "lost Israel."
Despite this, most of the "lost tribe -ism" advocates are amazingly ignorant of anything other than some tract they have picked up somewhere which, of course, receives no academic review/approval/criticism because "they" control all the processes. It is just the same group of UFO bugs, paranormalists, trilateralist/John Birchers, and a whole group of other clunks, except this time they are Christian.
"There are actually over 100 documented examples of postulated people groups who have been claimed to be the "Lost Tribes" of Israel."
To me, this just shows that there is validity to the subject. There is a reason they search and perhaps one of the searchers is correct.
There are so many references to the "house of Israel" and the "house of Judah" in the Bible. Do you not believe that they are separate? If so, where are they, who are they, what happened to them, why does God tell us He will gather them again? If you don't believe they are separate then what can those references to the 2 houses mean?
I said I wouldn't do it but here I am for I cannot allow OPINION to override SCRIPTURE. FOUR TIMES God told Abraham his descendents would be as the sand and the sea. God repeated this PROMISE to Isaac and then went on to tell Jacob the same PROMISE 3 times and adding in Gen. 35 that Jacob's seed would becaome A NATION AND A COMPANY OF NATIONS.
NINE TIMES THIS PROMISE WAS REPEATED. Also when Jacob blessed Ephraim and Mennasah he told Eprhaim his decendents would become the melo goyim or the fullnes of the gentiles.
There is a whole picture here that I could write volumnes on. I have hundreds of scriptures to prove that there are two seperate houses, the House of Israel and the House of Judah, two seperate peoples, and the end time prophetic movement is to unite the two houses restoring the Kingdom of Israel. This was the last question the deciples asked Jesus before He ascended. "When are you going to restore the Kingdom of Israel." Proving the northern House of Israel was NOT UNITED WITH JUDAH AT THAT TIME and is not today but will be in the future.
Restoration of Israel Outline
Genesis
12:1-3 (Gen 12:1 KJV) Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee:
(Gen 12:2 KJV) And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
(Gen 12:3 KJV) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blesse
13:16 (Gen 13:16 KJV) And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
15:1-6 (Gen 15:1 KJV) After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
(Gen 15:2 KJV) And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
(Gen 15:3 KJV) And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
(Gen 15:4 KJV) And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
(Gen 15:5 KJV) And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
(Gen 15:6 KJV) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
*Galatians 3:29 (Gal 3:29 KJV) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 4:28 (Gal 4:28 KJV) Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Genesis 17:1-7 (Gen 17:1 KJV) And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
(Gen 17:2 KJV) And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
(Gen 17:3 KJV) And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
(Gen 17:4 KJV) As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
(Gen 17:5 KJV) Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
(Gen 17:6 KJV) And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
(Gen 17:7 KJV) And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
*Romans 4:17-22 (Rom 4:17 KJV) (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
(Rom 4:18 KJV) Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
(Rom 4:19 KJV) And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
(Rom 4:20 KJV) He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
(Rom 4:21 KJV) And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
(Rom 4:22 KJV) And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Genesis 22:17 (Gen 22:17 KJV) That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
(Gen 22:18 KJV) And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Genesis 24:59-60 (Gen 24:59 KJV) And they sent away Rebekah their sister, and her nurse, and Abraham's servant, and his men.
(Gen 24:60 KJV) And they blessed Rebekah, and said unto her, Thou art our sister, be thou the mother of thousands of millions, and let thy seed possess the gate of those which hate them.
Genesis 26:3 (Gen 26:1 KJV) And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
(Gen 26:2 KJV) And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
(Gen 26:3 KJV) Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
(Gen 26:4 KJV) And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Genesis 28:3-5 (Gen 28:3 KJV) And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people;
(Gen 28:4 KJV) And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.
(Gen 28:5 KJV) And Isaac sent away Jacob: and he went to Padanaram unto Laban, son of Bethuel the Syrian, the brother of Rebekah, Jacob's and Esau's mother.
1 Chr 16:14-17 (1 Chr 16:14 KJV) He is the LORD our God; his judgments are in all the earth.
(1 Chr 16:15 KJV) Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
(1 Chr 16:16 KJV) Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
(1 Chr 16:17 KJV) And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
Hebrews 11:9 (Heb 11:8 KJV) By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
(Heb 11:9 KJV) By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Genesis 28:13-14(Gen 28:13 KJV) And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
(Gen 28:14 KJV) And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Genesis 35:9-12 (Gen 35:9 KJV) And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.
(Gen 35:10 KJV) And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
(Gen 35:11 KJV) And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
(Gen 35:12 KJV) And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.
Genesis 48:1-19 (Gen 48:1 KJV) And it came to pass after these things, that one told Joseph, Behold, thy father is sick: and he took with him his two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim.
(Gen 48:2 KJV) And one told Jacob, and said, Behold, thy son Joseph cometh unto thee: and Israel strengthened himself, and sat upon the bed.
(Gen 48:3 KJV) And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,
(Gen 48:4 KJV) And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.
(Gen 48:5 KJV) And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.
Identical to Hamas or Hitler!
In Acts 13, we find Paul among the JEWS, addressing them (again) as "Men of Israel" (v 16-17)and referred to God as "the God of this people Israel.
Romans 9-11 is the clearest theological passage in the Bible addressing the question: "If Gentiles are now recipients of the covenant promises, then has not God repudiated his promises to the Jew?" NOTE: if there were a need to pull some kind of distinction between "Jew" and "Israel" THIS WOULD BE THE PLACE TO DO IT! Instead, there is not a hint of such foolishness. Paul rather says that the covenant promises were not merely to the sons of Abraham, but that there was an "Israel within Israel" consisting of those of faith. Gentiles have now been grafted in, in the wonder of God's electing love, and are recipients of the promises of the covenant. God's promises have not failed because the the promises were ALWAYS made to the people of faith, and not just to a physical lineage. Sons of Abraham have been broken off (God can and will bring many back in!), but there is not even a hint of some distinction between "Jew" and "Israel," here. Rather, there is an insistence that all are one in Christ, and that there is no longer a basis for distinction even between Jew and Gentile. That is the clear reading of the passage.
The reason for this is found plainly in Amos. He explains for us the different destinies of the two kingdoms, (Judah and Israel). Amos 9 was written on the cusp of the dissolution of Samaria and its destruction in 721 BC by Assyria
"Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord. For lo, I will command and I will sift the house of Israel among all the nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. All the sinners of thy people shall die by the sword, which say: The evil shall not overtake or prevent us."
a)The Northern Kingdom of Israel was to be "utterly destroyed from the face of the earth" as contrasted with the southern kingdom of Judah. No mercy, no sparing and importantly NO PROMISE OF RESTORATION AS A POLITICAL ENTITY. b)The Peoples of the Northern Kingdom are expressly contrasted with the PEOPLES of Judah. God said, in essence, "I will not utterly destroy you as a people, as I will keep the people of Judah." It is a weird promise, but contains the truth that the Northern Kingdom was to find its identification with the people of God ONLY through identification with the "remnant" of the Southern Kingdom. This was a hint as to what actually did happen historically. In 587 BC, Judah was destroyed as a kingdom, but preserved whole (in contrast to the northern kingdom, which was dispersed throughout the Assyrian empire). History tells us that all the sons of Abraham from that time forth associated with Judah, and the ones who returned to the land were associated with Judah and became part of the "remnant." The 10 tribes were NOT preserved somewhere, whether in N. America or any other crackpot ideas. There is NO historical evidence to suggest they were. They were lost as an ethnic entity, and found their affiliation as a peoples by clinging to the one unit which God DID preserve, Judah.
All this is well documented historically, accurate biblically, and was the opinion of many many godly men of faith down through history (Calvin, Augustine, Luther, Wesley, Spurgeon and a host of others), notwithstanding your sneers that they are "Romish" because they would have thought the latest dispensationlist potboiling "discovery" to be weird, unhistorical and most importantly, unbiblical.
"He addressed the Sons of Judah as Sons of Israel, or Men of Israel" -
All of the tribes are the sons of Israel/Jacob
"In Acts 13, we find Paul among the JEWS, addressing them (again) as "Men of Israel" (v 16-17)and referred to God as "the God of this people Israel." -
Again, they are the sons of Israel/Jacob, not the Tribes of Israel or House of Israel. Also, there are times when the word Jew is used and it means the inhabitants of an area. An example is that I am American but I am also of Scotch-Irish descent and I am an Alabamian. Jew could mean their place of residence or that they were of Jewish heritage.
"I will not utterly destroy you as a people, as I will keep the people of JUDAH" -
I don't know if you just wrote it in error or I'm not going to the same scripture as you but I see the verse as "I will not utterly destroy you as a people, as I will keep the people of JACOB (not Judah). - Again, all of the tribes.
"If Gentiles are now recipients of the covenant promises, then has not God repudiated his promises to the Jew?" -
I'm not certain of your meaning of "gentiles". Jew is only for the tribe of Judah. The other tribes are not gentile but of the same Hebrew family. I know most religions refer to gentile as anyone other than Jew but once you understand the "tribe" issue we are discussing here you see that is incorrect.
Gentile: Strong's #1471 (Heb.) a foreign nation, troop of
animals or flight of locusts, heathen nation, people.
#1484(Greek) ethnos, heathen.
Gentile means ethnic people.
SO AM I! but no longer live in the "Heart of Dixie." What part are u from?
Again, they are the sons of Israel/Jacob, not the Tribes of Israel or House of Israel.
Pardon, but I find that a trifling excuse, and a quibble over words. There was no "magic" phrase to distinguish tribe of Israel from men of Israel.
I don't know if you just wrote it in error or I'm not going to the same scripture as you but I see the verse as "I will not utterly destroy you as a people, as I will keep the people of JACOB (not Judah)
You saw it correct and I am in error, even though I even posted the passage itself above my paragraph. Just comes from typing too fast. thank you for the correction. I don't want to lie or misrepresent anything in here ......" cursed be he that doeth the work of the Lord in a deceitful manner" and all that. However, the main point I was TRYING to make (before I screwed it all up with being unable to keep my thoughts and words congruent) was that God made a clean and clear distinction between what he was doing with the north AS A POLITICAL ENTITY (he would wipe them out and they would have no future), and what he would do with them as a PEOPLE (there would be a remnant.
I'm not certain of your meaning of "gentiles"
Not much reason for confusion here, as ethnos is one of the best attested words in the NT. We DO get the EH word "ethnic" from it, but it had a special or particular meaning when used in the NT. If you use it only in the sense of a particualar people (the "attic" greek meaning), half of the NT ceases to make sense. The entire NT world was divided into "Jew" (and there is NO basis for ANY teaching ANYWHERE, in Hillel, Book of Jubilees, the First Book of Enoch, the Biblical Antiquities of Pseudo-Philo, the Dead Sea Scrolls, or ANY Jewish teaching ANYWHERE that there was a distinction between JEW and ISRAEL... even in the Midrash, where they went wild with some very allegorical interpretations) and "Other"..... the "other" meaning represented by the word "gentile." There is no extant teaching anywhere from any Hebrew teachers who found evidence in the Torah/Prophets that bought into the idea that the 10 northern tribes had any type of destiny from God that was separate from Judah. NONE, and I defy anyone to show me otherwise.
Further, there is nothing in the New Testament to suggest such a thing. If this deal was so central to apocalyptic teaching, we would at least see ONE of the church era fathers writing something about it. We don't even find Cerinthus, or the gnostics, or the pseudipigripha mentioning any idea like that. Nothing.
Again, if it were really something that central to understanding the coming eschaton, I would expect to find TONS of references to it in the Jewish apocryphal literature......, instead, NOTHING.
Finally, I would also expect Clement (alexandria or rome), Origen, Gregory, or ANY of the pre-nicene fathers to make even a cryptic allusion to it..... again, NOTHING.
The reason is that there really is no scriptural basis for such an assumption.
Wrapping up, it is not correct to assert that Jew is only for the tribe of Judah. It is often used, both now and in Biblial times, to refer to any son of Abraham. This is especially true after 587 BC.
It is an artificial and false distinction to divide the "house of Israel" from the "tribe of Israel." The only way one can come up with such a distinction is to approach the bible with a predetermined belief that there must be some type of political future for sons of Abraham and then work backwards from that, looking for a system that allows for it.
In closing, I used to be a rock hard Bama fan (graduated there many moons ago), but I have come to support Auburn with just as much zeal. Here's hoping that the rest of the nation wakes up to what OSU just found out..... WE PLAY REAL FOOTBALL IN THE SEC!!!!
Shalom l'kah
I loved your reply and YES, SEC RULES. However, I don't know about War Eagle over ROLL TIDE (especially with the new coach). Wait until next year! I'm from where the Senior Bowl is about to be played, Mobile, Alabama (born and raised.)
It doesn't sound as if either of us will ever change our minds on the "tribes" issue but I feel sure we both agree about our Savior and that is the most important.
I will say, after reading the posts from you and LadyL, I am most impressed with the knowledge both of you have. It makes me regret all that time I spent on tennis courts. I have such a hunger now to learn but not the young brain. (But I sure had a mean backhand). I don't think that is going to count with God however so I continue to try to learn as much as I can.
I think the larger question is why do Jews support the party in America that is ANTI-ISRAEL and hate and mock the party and people who want to protect Israel.
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