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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord; nmh; Sue Perkick; TommyDale; Arizona Carolyn; DocRock; Gamecock
Specific denominations are of little if any significance insofar as this "stuff" is concerned.

As to Presbyterian churches, I'm aware that there's the "real" Presbyterian denomination, and the "Evangelical Presbyterian" offshoot, founded, IIRC, by the late Francis Schaffer.

I know of one particular "real" Presbyterian church -- the "Pill Hill" type (doctors and lawyers and so forth -- the "prestige" church in that town) -- which had become seduced by the "Shepherding and Discipleship" movement.

In fact, the Pastor of that Presbyterian church ended up in the midst of a fairly awkward situation, when the local newspaper got hold of the facts (no comment :) and did a week-long expose of the cult in question (the church that I founded, which kicked me out when I refused to "submit" to the guys who had taken it over and put it under the yoke of the "S&D" heresy).

Turns out that the Presbyterian Pastor had "submitted" himself to the leader of the pack over at the cult church! "Like, wow, man," eh? LOL!

After "it" hit the proverbial fan (courtesy of the newspaper getting around to covering the situation at the Presbyterian church around Day 4 of the series), the denomination's heirarchy found out about it, and they did some rapid house-cleaning.

Everyone from the Pastor all the way down to the church secretary -- even the church janitor, as I recall -- was quickly dismissed from their position.

The church then split roughly in half, with those who approved of the cultie stuff leaving, and forming an Evangelical Presbyterian church. They built a real nice building (as did the cult itself, a few miles away), and, got themselves a new pastor. (The Presbyterian heirarchy juggled things so that (working from long past memory here) he could get his pension, or most of it, but ONLY if he did NOT "engage in ministry" in any capacity. Forced retirement. So, the "splitees" had to get themselves another leader. I don't know if he was "submitted" or not.)

The point is, denominational labels mean nothing anymore. In the same town, the "leading" Episcopal and Methodist ministers got together to try to strongarm the local government to get a particular channel removed from the cable television system. (Since the cable system was a genuine monopoly, operating via a government franchise, protected from any competition, they pretty much had to do what they were told to do, if they wanted to keep their license.)

The channel these two "Men of God" wanted to get kicked off the "air"? It was "The Christian Broadcasting Network."

The rationale behind their demands? They claimed (sitting down?) The First Amendment! (Yup. We're gonna silence you in the name of freedom of religion.)

They weren't particularly subtle. The would rail -- in public, on the record -- about these "religionists", and their efforts to promulgate their ideas. Can't have that, now can we. These characters were pretty obvious hardcore lefties -- and pretty heavyhanded, too. They lost.

But, the lesson has been learned, and folks who are casting themselves as "change agents" are much more subtle these days. The wolf does NOT bare his fangs and start raving about "religionists". Instead, he smiles, and talks about party time in heaven.

Anyone looking at things via sharply focused denominational spectacles is going to miss the action by a country mile. It's not one denomination or another denomination or this denomination or that denomination that's going to get knee-tackled. It's any church that lets the enemy through the gates.

That said, I do forsee a not-too-trivial confrontation in the offing, in the not-too-distant future, between the Warrenites and the SBC, if for no other reason than that denomination (whether they call themselves a denomination or not) being the one Warren hangs his shingle under.

I can see a day coming in which either Warren is shown the door, and kicked out of the SBC, or, his forces, working from within, manage to subvert and "repurpose" the SBC to make it Warrenite-friendly. ("The Repurpose Driven Denomination"?)

886 posted on 01/03/2007 9:18:34 AM PST by Don Joe (We've traded the Rule of Law for the Law of Rule.)
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To: Don Joe

I see a day coming when the true church, the church that God is pruning, will ARISE and show all of us who God really is and who WE really are in Christ. It will be a church of power, healing, righteousness, purity, and it won't be a catholic, presbyterian, episcopalian, non-denominational, whatever denominational church. It will be the TRUE Church, led by God himself, not man and his foolish doctrines. I can't wait. I am so tired of churchianity and judgemental christians who seem to live to bash other christians. God WILL cleanse the church. We don't have to do it. He is shaking the church even now--re Ted Haggard and others. All we have to do is watch it happen and pray for those men and women in power. They, as we, can be very easily deceived so we need to pray for them, not tear them down at every opportunity.


974 posted on 01/03/2007 1:00:09 PM PST by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL.)
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