Posted on 12/21/2006 11:03:18 AM PST by areafiftyone
Then, her attempt to make anti-war critic Rep. John Murtha the majority leader was equally stupid: Colleagues rejected Murtha and picked the popular, deserving Rep. Steny Hoyer.. Pelosi Blunders On...
The key word there is "beginning". Bit by bit, smooth, we'll see the full extent of Murtha's crimes.
If that's the situation, ya gotta take the innocents out to get to the bad guys..those would be the ones holding the AK-47s and shooting....but what I'm referring to is a My Lai situation where you line up the civilians...unarmed civilians and shoot 'em. I think that's unacceptable behavior, even in a war zone. I think the crap at Abu Graib was wrong too. You don't make a Jihadi talk by humiliation. Hey, torture is okay. But this weak a$$ed crap doesn't fly with me. Oh...and above all: DON'T GET CAUGHT! No records. The idiots at Abu Graib deserved to go to jail for winding up on CNN.
Ah ha...hi back at you redrover. Time for me to start calling!
Welcome to Free Republic, lily! Glad you're here.
Welcome to Free Republic and the Haditha Marines ping list, lily. :-)
By: JOHN VAN DOORN - Staff Writer
The Corps has spoken.
Last week it charged four Camp Pendleton Marines with "unpremeditated murder" in the deaths of 24 Iraqi civilians in the city of Haditha, province of Al Anbar, on the morning of Nov. 19, 2005.
In addition, four Marine officers, none of whom was in Haditha, were accused of lesser charges of failing to properly investigate and report the incident.
There could hardly be a darker day for the Corps, which has an illustrious history in the conduct of warfare. From Iwo Jima to the Chosin Reservoir, from DaNang to the Persian Gulf, from Montezuma's halls to Tripoli's shores, the Marines have acquitted themselves with legendary honor. Many thousands of them died in the conflicts, and are dying now.
Not to convict the men of Pendleton before they've had their trials, but something horrific happened in Haditha that November day. It wasn't glorious, it wasn't noble. But it was enough to make the name Haditha known around the world. Twenty-four civilians were killed at the hands of Marines from Kilo Company of the 3rd Battalion of the 1st Marine Regiment, a Pendleton outfit.
No one disagrees that the killings took place. They did, period. It is in the hows and whys of those civilian deaths that truth becomes as slippery as quicksilver. War's fog rolls in.
On one side the Marines are accused of bloody revenge: One of their own got killed, and his comrades got even.
The one who died was Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas of El Paso, Texas. He was on one of four Humvees driving through the city -- two Kilo platoons were aboard the four -- when a bomb tore through it, killing Terrazas.
In fury, goes this version, the surviving Marines rushed several nearby homes and killed just about everyone they saw, including women and children.On another side, it was self-defense. Yes, the Humvee was blown up and Terrazas was killed. But then, this version has it, the other Marines came under attack by AK-47 assault rifles fired from nearby homes. The Marines rushed the homes and killed just about every occupant, including women and children. They were defending themselves in wartime, this side asserts.
Congressman John Murtha of Pennsylvania called it coldblooded murder.
Perhaps it was. Maybe the Marines who were there that day lost control of themselves and coldbloodedly slaughtered 24 civilians who had no arms of any sort. And maybe not.
In any event, there are other perspectives worth consideration, other questions that bear raising.
Obviously these young men are accused of terrible crimes. But could not a case be made that the death of every civilian in the war in Iraq is terrible, and perhaps actionable?
Numbers are tricky and impossible to verify. But the government of Iraq itself says that 100,000 civilians have been killed. An investigative group from Johns Hopkins University says the number is 650,000.
Other organizations of various political persuasions offer figures of the fallen from 30,000 to half a million.
A key word exists in all this legal rubble: "deliberate." It was said over the months by accusers that what the Haditha killers did was "deliberate," and that that separates them from the accepted warrior conduct of other Marines.
But that conduct, too, would seem in logic to be deliberate. Deliberate air raids, deliberate grenades, deliberate small arms.
The Haditha gang members are deliberate killers, is how it goes. All other combatants are ... what?
Nothing will change the basic fact, which is that 24 noncombatants were slain by Marines. Nothing will excuse it.
But in trying to understand what happened and why, it ought to be remembered that Marine fighting men and women are young people. Just that: young. In the main, they are not sophisticates, not hard-case veterans with sly interpretations of right and wrong. They are kids doing what they believe to be their duty, which is to fight far away, and to try to survive. They obey orders and carry out that duty. And bless them all for their valor and strength.
Don't forget that they were trained to finish the enemy off. Go to any training base and hear the shouts of "kill, kill, kill!" Wash away the high-tech mumbo-jumbo, the niceties of interpersonal relationships and the subtleties of applied diplomacy, and you will find trained killers.
Looked at this way, it might appear that all the accused are charged with doing what they were taught and assigned to do, what they were supposed to do. Everybody was doing it, quite deliberately.
Make no mistake. The crime at Haditha was unspeakable. Someone has to answer for that.
But in the heat and emotion of death and near-death, awful stuff happens. Haditha cannot be squeezed into a neat package and called collateral damage.
Should not every pilot, then, of every U.S. plane that ever bombed or strafed Iraq cities, towns, bases, redoubts or bunkers be charged with murder in the resulting deaths of civilians? Such deaths always, always take place. They are called "collateral damage" in the military euphemism.
Further, what of their commanders who ordered the sorties? Charged as murderers? How about the U.S. general in charge of the operation in Iraq? Does he not bear a responsibility? He was the boss.
And if he does bear responsibility, surely his superiors, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, ought to be brought to account.
Finally, then-Secretary Rumsfeld and President Bush started it. Are they not guilty, logically, of more than the easy criticism, which is madness?
Contact staff writer John Van Doorn at (760) 739-6647 or jvandoorn@nctimes.com. Comment at nctimes.com.
Welcome aboard. Hope your stay is enjoyable as well as fruitful.
The Saudis and other Sunni regimes were adamant about getting a clear signal that we were serious about bringing the Sunni Iraqis around to our side. So we gave them that clear signal, in the form of the indictment of eight Marines in all, including four officers who were nowhere near the scene of the crime. That signal, of course, was right there on the front page of Friday's Times. I quote now from Gary Solis, who teaches the law of war at Georgetown and at West Point: 'This is very aggressive charging -- wow. I think this illustrates the deep seriousness the Marine Corps takes with these events.' And this is from what Time magazine had to say: 'The interests of the U.S. military in Iraq, right now, demand not only that justice be done over the Haditha killings, but also that it be seen to be done--by Iraqis as well as by Americans. That may help explain the extensive indictment.' As I said, eight indictments. Mission accomplished!
Yes, it's 'Breaker Morant' all over again. But I remind you: The execution of Harry Harbord Morant on February 27, 1902 was one of the key political decisions that enabled the British government to reconnect with the Dutch Afrikaners in the wake of the Boer War. Indeed, the white South Africans were a staunch ally through two world wars to come, and for decades even after that. So some might even say that if those Marines didn't exist, we would have to invent them, as a sign of good faith to the Arabs! But there's no reason to be conspiratorial here: We can simply thank General Pace for his contribution to the success of our efforts. He understands that raison d'état transcends semper fi.
Thank you, I wish I would have known about this forum months ago. It is refreshing to know others are not just watching the news and changing the channel saying "Nothing I can do". This is a "do".
So I just sent them an e-mail...
On Morning Edition, November 21, 2006, you quoted anonymous DOD sources that five Marines were about to be charged. The names you gave were : Staff Sergeant Frank Wuterich, Corporal Hector Salinas, Corporal Sanick De la Cruz, Lance Corporal Stephen Tatum, and Lance Corporal Justin Sharratt.
Corporal Hector Salinas, however, was not charged. Any explanation or apology for this false leak and reporting?
I'll post any reply that I receive. If anyone feels like doing likewise, you can e-mail NPR by going to this url:
http://www.npr.org/contact/
I hate what's happening to our Marines but am glad we can at least make some positive things happen on their behalf.
Hope you're right. The evidence will be presented in court, but will enough evidence be made public to convince the men and women in the ranks as well as the public? Inquiring minds want to know...
He left out a word. When Denny was a kid and the youngest mayor ever for Cleveland, Ohio, I used to think he was cool. But then, I was much younger than he was and I grew up and matured. ;*)
I wish I would have known about this forum months ago.
We have all felt that way at one time or another. I am grateful I found FR around the 2004 election. It is a wonderful place!
Answer: Why yes Mr. Rover, we have an explanation. We tortured him until he cracked and agreed to roll over on his brothers in arms. Thank you for your kind e-mail.
Excellent question. All the leaks thus far have been for the prosecution. Will the court martial proceedings be open to reporters? Will the defense have their chance to present their case before the public?
I once owned a pair of bell bottom jeans but please don't tell anyone.
LOL! I suppose I shouldn't have admitted to thinking he was cool, huh? ;*)
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