[Rurudyne]

arnoldwilliams, since you've decided to close I would like to call attention to the structure of the arguments you have presented.

You have presented us with a dilemma. Dilemmas have been likened to bulls: attempt to wrestle one horn and you take the other in the chest. The only way to deal with these is to try to grab both horns or else grasp the proverbial bull's neck.

As I see it, you have presented two "horns":

The Horn of Social Justice and the Economic Horn.

The Horn of Social Justice questions or posits a number of things: the soundness of our laws, the needs of those who are entering the country illegally, and so forth.

The Economic Horn questions or posits a number of things: the manifest presence of illegals already here most notably.

These are not unconventional defenses of Illegal Aliens––they are generally considered the strong arguments for leniency and tolerance.

However, I've tried to point out that the real issue isn't any of these things. If there is an economic need for more people in our society then shouldn't it be up to us––the Citizens––to determine how that need will be met? Isn't the real issue of social justice if a society has a right to set for itself its own laws and expect that these should be respected? Also if those laws are problematic, isn't it our privilege––indeed our obligation––to look after that ourselves?

As it is your whole position must fall back on the preeminence of Illegal Aliens in deciding for themselves which of our laws they should respect AND of our tolerating their presence once they are here––now that they have made the sovereign decision to impose themselves on us––since they may be of use to us materially.

That is a very crass view, IMHO.

Certainly, it is not one enjoined by the Mexican government when their OWN laws are called into question.

Respectfully, Rurudyne

[ckilmer]

the best you can say for arnoldwilliams is that he thinks he's a shill for the federals in Mexico city. The worst you can say about arnoldwilliams is that he's a shill for the transnational sodomites north american union project. Given the nature of his arguements--its likely the latter.

[VOA]

Even with all the discussion on this and other threads since the November
elections, I still believe the war is over.
The Illegals have won.

A sufficient number of my fellow citizens voted for the party of
open-borders and open-ended (endless) Amnesty. And those will be law
sometime next year.
Dubya, Pelosi and Reid no longer have those pesky law-n-order Republicans
standing in their way; their way to victory is open and clear.

If not, I'll be glad to eat crow (with plenty of BBQ sauce).