Posted on 12/18/2006 8:12:55 AM PST by SJackson
To be sure I'll look into it further. Thank you so much for the reference to Brian Vickers as a good source on the Baconian style. And thanks for writing!
Thanks for your splendid post!
Adam and Eve would have been created perfect which would mean no genetic mutations and it's not unreasonable to conclude that they contained all the genetic information necessary to account for the variation we see in humans. At the Fall is when corruption entered the world but it still would have taken time for mutations to occur and spread throughout the human race enough so that inbreeding would allow harmful recessive traits to show.
The laundry list of reasons why two people alone could not produce the variety we see in the human race now would only apply to imperfect humans in today's world. Perfect humans, or creatures of any kind, would have all the DNA they possess availbalbe to them for use, there'd be no *junk* DNA. So what would the potential be in a creature was able to utilize 100% of the DNA is possessed?
One could make the same argument for the Koran...
(it's not unreasonable to conclude that they contained all the genetic information necessary to account for the variation we see in humans.)
How is that not unreasonable? It is totally against all we know scientifically. There is no way two people can carry all of that genetic information! Define "created perfect"? Did they have more chromosomes than usual? Were they even human at all?
Based on what we know about genetics and DNA, the Adam and Eve story is scientifically impossible. This is one reason why many people discount Christianity whole cloth. You are asking me to make huge leaps in logic to believe stories like Adam and Eve, Samson and Noah's Ark.
"Not too disastrous, there are currently billions of human beings doing quite well."
And they didn't come from two people, 6,000 years ago.
(Dude...the manuscript evidence for the New Testament is overwhelming (more than 5,000 complete manuscripts). Compare this with about 10 copies of the Iliad.)
The authorship and origin of The Iliad (homer) is undisputed. The supposed "original" versions of the four gospels have NEVER, I repeat NEVER discovered and the authorship is unknown (the historical St. Matthew most likely did not write it). The fact is, all we have are copies of copies of copies (of the gospels).
(The four gospels were all written in the 1st century A.D. Matthew or Mark within 20 years (not 200) of Jesus' death; Luke very soon thereafter; John probably around 85-95 A.D.)
You're right, the earliest date agreed by historians is around 60 - 65 A.D. but the first actual documents come much later.
How do you account for the similarity of the story of Jesus to many other OLDER ancient myths?
(They would never have been able to gain the circulation and credibility they did, if they were fabrications.)
Do you seriously want to use this as an argument? What about the dozens of other "Gospels" that were just as popular as the four included in the Bible?
(On your last point...suffice to say that while many religious leaders have risen to greatness, only One has risen from the grave. The resurrection of Christ authenticates His divinity.)
There is no extra-biblical evidence that the historical Jesus rose from the dead. And yes, resurrection from the dead is a common theme across many religions.
Do humans use all their DNA?
At one time I had faith in Christ as well. Until some Christians insisted I accept obvious fantasy, and forced me to reject Him. It is not science with the message of death, it is the Creationists that made it impossible for me to believe.
such evidence as mine can be beheld by anyone, including a child. That is real evidence my friend.
Children believe anything they are told, and often hold those false beliefs for life. That is how faith is propagated. Ever wonder how come most Americans are Christian, and most Arabs Muslim? The truth of a faith is irrelevant, it's what children are taught in the home that makes a Christian, or Muslim, or Jew, or Hindu, or Shinto.
It is we who make things difficult where they need not be.
It is sometimes difficult to accept the truth, when the fantasy is so appealing. I will always detest the person that forced me to reject my faith in God, because they convinced me that I must accept Genesis literally, or reject Him. I was living in a fantasy faith, but it was a good fantasy, and now I've lost it.
75 years ago most Christians abandoned the fight against Evolution and there was little conflict on the issue. In the 80's "Creation Science" was invented, and Christians with knowledge have fled God ever since.
It is not "Evolution" that is the problem. It is the promoting of ideas like Creationism that is the problem. Creationism does no good for Christianity, only harm.
(Do humans use all their DNA?)
Are you saying one human can carry the genetic material for every single race now on Earth? That is just plain silly.
Vickers' book is "Francis Bacon and Renaissance Prose." He also edited Bacon for The Oxford Authors, which is a kind of students' edition.
Oxford has been putting out a new edition. I haven't kept up with it, but I seem to have Volume VI on my shelf, which was sent to me for review. It's a very nice piece of work, Latin and English on facing pages and extensive notes and bibliography. You might want to use it as the new standard edition, at least as far as it's come out.
Sounds like you've read C.S. Lewis's The Abolition of Man.
Cheers!
Yes, it is Narby. Behold your own words:
It sucks to know that when I'm dead, I'm dead.
Those words come not from your conflict with Christians, but from your inferences of science.
Children believe anything they are told..
You may have somewhat of a point here, but this part of our conversation evolved (no pun intended) from this pint which I made earlier: "but I tell you here and now, that when I shake myself of all things influential, and I stop and look around, I know in my heart and in my mind, and in my soul, that I was created above all else."
I still stand by those words, and child can tell you that he/she is unlike any other living thing on this planet.
Yes, to some extent, children believe what they are told, including, that such profound uniqueness is just fantasy...
I have to go for now....
OK, is naturalism (Dawkins et al.) the problem that destroys science? I am not a creationist but the current tide within science turns many conservatives off. Let’s be fair here… scientist proclaiming atheism in the name of ‘current’ science… Surely, you have read the article…
1) "Pint" should be "point"
2) "...and any child can tell you..."
[unfortunately there is no mechanism, such as "spell," to check for syntax when one is in a hurry]
Do humans use all their DNA? Supposedly over 95% is *junk*. What if it weren't?
Appealing?
Behold the words of Christ, and tell me if this is appealing:
Matthew 24:6-12
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Matthew 24:21-22
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
One man's theology is another man's belly laugh.Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973
Wonder Why finger prints are Unique among humans?..
Why would unique finger prints "evolve"?..
What would be their purpose?..
Was Paul WRONG about these???
Actually yes.
The used car salesman known as Paul was wrong so many times you lose count.
Not that it matters, Timothy (& Titus) were written 60-80 years after Paul had died ...
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