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"Cole Goes On" -- the debate continues
National Review Online ^ | February 8, 2005 | Jonah Goldberg

Posted on 12/15/2006 7:04:39 AM PST by MurryMom

Anyway, I do think my judgment is superior to his [Juan Cole's] when it comes to the big picture. So, I have an idea: Since he doesn't want to debate anything except his own brilliance, let's make a bet. I predict that Iraq won't have a civil war, that it will have a viable constitution, and that a majority of Iraqis and Americans will, in two years time, agree that the war was worth it. I'll bet $1,000 (which I can hardly spare right now). This way neither of us can hide behind clever word play or CV reading. If there's another reasonable wager Cole wants to offer which would measure our judgment, I'm all ears. Money where your mouth is, doc.

(Excerpt) Read more at nationalreview.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: cole; goldberg; vs; zot
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To: MurryMom

The total number of non-mortal coalition casualties in Iraq is 46,880. Link here:

http://icasualties.org/oif/



21 posted on 12/15/2006 11:21:00 AM PST by MurryMom
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To: CharlesWayneCT

Yes, that is correct. These numbers are based upon a statistical analysis of deaths supported by death certificates in Iraq over the past 3 years. The study was published in Nature magazine as stated earlier in this thread.


22 posted on 12/15/2006 11:22:56 AM PST by MurryMom
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To: MurryMom
Calling that a "fact-based study" is like looking at the Boston Red Sox and calling them the Rockettes. The numbers are give or take 56%. Gimme a break.

Get educated here.

23 posted on 12/15/2006 11:25:42 AM PST by Mr. Silverback (We need to crush the Iraq Study Group like we crushed Harriet Miers. Let fly!)
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To: MurryMom

Can you tell me which issue? I'll grab it from our library.


24 posted on 12/15/2006 11:26:57 AM PST by Teacher317
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To: MurryMom

I find it interesting that you put the word coalition in quotes. Can you give me a definition of the word coalition, from a dictionary, that justifies such a treatment of the wordwhen applied to the alliance that deposed Hussein?


25 posted on 12/15/2006 11:29:49 AM PST by Mr. Silverback (We need to crush the Iraq Study Group like we crushed Harriet Miers. Let fly!)
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To: MurryMom
That link indicates an average of about 1000 deaths per month for Iraqi security forces and civilians... so the Iraq War has been going on for 655 months? 54 years?

Even the link (found on the bottom left of that page) to the Lancet article only quotes "estimated numbers" of "up to 100,000 deaths". When did the other half-million arrive?

26 posted on 12/15/2006 11:32:23 AM PST by Teacher317
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To: MurryMom

Ah yes, the myth of teh inflated numbers.
How many people did SADDAM and his demonic brood murder in their entire time in Iraq?
And, by the by, how many 'casualties' did the allies suffer in the entire Second World War?

Troll, shut your piehole.


27 posted on 12/15/2006 2:42:25 PM PST by Darksheare ("I fear your smile and the promise it hides." See, she LOVES me!)
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To: MurryMom

Perhaps if they didn't include the dead Iranians, Syrians, Jordanians, so-called-Palestinians, Suadis, et al who came to fight for the terror cause....


28 posted on 12/15/2006 2:45:43 PM PST by Darksheare ("I fear your smile and the promise it hides." See, she LOVES me!)
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To: Teacher317; MurryMom

She claimed she got it from nature magazine.
She made that claim in post 10.
The numbers come from some libtards methane inhalation induced hallucinations.


29 posted on 12/15/2006 2:47:55 PM PST by Darksheare ("I fear your smile and the promise it hides." See, she LOVES me!)
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To: MurryMom

There's no Civil War in Iraq. Juan Cole loses.


30 posted on 12/15/2006 2:48:56 PM PST by balch3
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To: Mr. Silverback

The "coalition" includes the U.S., Britain, and a bunch of smaller countries whose members make prosecution of the occupation more difficult because U.S. and British troops must protect them.


31 posted on 12/16/2006 1:50:25 PM PST by MurryMom
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To: MurryMom
The "coalition" includes the U.S., Britain, and a bunch of smaller countries whose members make prosecution of the occupation more difficult because U.S. and British troops must protect them.

Wrong answer on two levels.

First, according to troops I've talked to (and embedded journalist accounts) these troops have been invaluable precisely because they free up U.S. troops. For example, Army and Marine troops who are trained for combat have been freed up by El Salvadorans who handled medical duties and mine clearing/UXO duties. BTW, I'll be sure to tell my nephew that the Aussies he worked with killing Al Qaeda needed to be protected. He is going to laugh so hard he'll pee his pants. Can you cite me a source for your assertion?

Second, you are dodging the question. Show me a definition of the word coalition that would allow you to put it in quotes when describing the OIF allies.

32 posted on 12/16/2006 3:14:21 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (We need to crush the Iraq Study Group like we crushed Harriet Miers. Let fly!)
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To: Darksheare; MurryMom
My question is, if we've been losing 15,000 Iraq civilians a month, where are the bodies? How could the Iraqi government and all the Western news outlets be unaware of more than 14,000 bodies lying around every month? Where are they, MurryMom?
33 posted on 12/16/2006 3:18:46 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (We need to crush the Iraq Study Group like we crushed Harriet Miers. Let fly!)
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To: Mr. Silverback; MurryMom

That is an interesting question, but Murrymom obviously won't answer.
And cannot since there haven't been such high numbers at all.

Of course, it is an interesting insight as to the reason why we have the right to question the patriotuism of Dems.
They're busy being a propaganda arm for the enemy.


34 posted on 12/17/2006 11:57:53 AM PST by Darksheare ("I fear your smile and the promise it hides." See, she LOVES me!)
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To: Mr. Silverback
...where are the bodies?

You must be recently returned from the Holocaust Denial Conference hosted by your friend Ahmadinejad in Tehran where it was reported that the total number of dead Jews in WWII was only about 2,005 or so. Is your argument that since you haven't seen any of the Holocaust bodies not very many Jews died in WWII?

35 posted on 12/17/2006 3:20:25 PM PST by MurryMom
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To: MurryMom; Darksheare
Hey Dark, whaddaya know, she answered up.

Is your argument that since you haven't seen any of the Holocaust bodies not very many Jews died in WWII?

No, O great double bacon genius burger. We know those bodies were burned because we found the ashes, we have the eyewitnesses and we have the camp records kept by the Nazis. Even if we didn't know where they went, we'd need an explanation for why camps recorded such a large number of Jews coming in and our GIs found so few. And hey, nice try treating the Lancet study like it's a solid number. Did you read the article I linked to that debunked it, or are you still operating on "facts" you pick and choose to support your delusions?

Now, is it your argument that the reason neither the media or the the Iraqi governments know about the 14,000 bodies a month is because there are crematoria all over Iraq turning them into ashes? Where are the bodies? And why didn't you answer my Al Gore question in the Baker thread?

36 posted on 12/17/2006 7:35:53 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (We need to crush the Iraq Study Group like we crushed Harriet Miers. Let fly!)
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To: MurryMom; Darksheare
Actually, we know have at least four questions you haven't answered, Murry Mom.

1. Give me a citation to back up your assertion that coalition forces from small countries are damaging our war effort by pulling American and British troops away from other missions.

2. Give me a dictionary definition of the word coalition that would allow you to put it in quotes when describing the alliance that deposed Hussein.

3. Tell me where the 14,000+ bodies per month are and why the Iraqi government, the U.S. government and the Western media have no idea these people died.

4. Tell me whether you believe the list of fourteen items in the "Ballot Counting Coup" column posted here.

You haven't answered even one of these, but have merely suggested I'm a Holocaust denier because I don't side with the ever-wise Murry Mom in believing a study that was roundly debunked. Well, evidence talks and BS walks, so let's see what you've got. Bring it.

37 posted on 12/17/2006 8:13:57 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (We need to crush the Iraq Study Group like we crushed Harriet Miers. Let fly!)
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To: Mr. Silverback; MurryMom

She's obviously gotten a nerve pinched there somewhere.

I like how she tried to link Holocaust deniers to the outrageously inflated numbers of supposed dead Iraqis.
She also forgets that her side is tallying up dead terrorists in their 'figures', quite dishonest to say the least.
Now if her side would stop rooting for the terrorists, we wouldn't have grounds to question their patriotism.


38 posted on 12/18/2006 11:34:17 AM PST by Darksheare ("I fear your smile and the promise it hides." See, she LOVES me!)
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To: Darksheare; MurryMom
I like how she tried to link Holocaust deniers to the outrageously inflated numbers of supposed dead Iraqis.

To use the Holocaust analogy, this situation is not like the Holocaust deniers, it's as if the Germans said "Hey, not only did we not kill the Jews (it was those dirty scumbag Russians!) but they didn't kill six million, thay killed 80 million! We have the interviews to prove it, so don't let the fact that it's impossible get in the way of believing it."

39 posted on 12/18/2006 8:56:19 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (We need to crush the Iraq Study Group like we crushed Harriet Miers. Let fly!)
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