Can Democracy Be Imposed? Not in Muslim countries.

Islam-Watch ^ | 06 Dec, 2006 | Alamgir Hussain

[Ahussain]

Folks, the al-Qaeda propagandist is here again. With the same message: 'stay away from Islamic countries' ----------

It appears to be impossible to institute freedom and democracy and the rule of law in Muslim countries. Such effort, in stead of bringinging peace and prosperity, bring more troubes for the world. We must understand the underlying reasons first before taking such disastrous measures in the future>>>

[roses of sharon]

Never would Hillary unleash hell on anyone other than Americans.

[GSlob]

OK, here it is my old FRmail explaining what a communism is. Please bear with me for a few paragraphs:
There is a school of thought [to which I subscribe] which uses a bit unorthodox definitions and claims that Russia has always been communistic, and does not want [or knows how] to be anything else:
In my sociological analysis of Russia I follow Alexander Zinoviev, since his analysis happens to square with my life experiences there to an uncanny degree. Briefly, Zinoviev [and I after him] considers communism as a way of life which is characterized [like every other way of life] by how people relate to one another and to their groups [ultimately to their society, which is merely the largest and most powerful of these groups] in socially important situations. The best description of this way of life is to be found in a Russian proverb: "Ty nachal'nik - ya der'mo, ya nachal'nik - ty der'mo" [If you're the boss, then I'm POS, and if I'm the boss, then you are POS]. Pretty similar to a very bad Western workplace with a petty boss whose authority has gone to his head, but writ large over the whole society.
Just as capitalism is defined by "monetary/property relationships", so communism is defined by the power relationships of subordination, coordination and domination. While these phenomena could be found in every and any society [money - in the form of coins - is known since about 600 BC, and bosses and subordinates have been around for even longer], in a capitalistic society monetary/property relationships become [for the first time and at the limit, in the abstract] all-important and all-defining; and similarly in communist societies the power relationships - the exercise of naked arbitrary power and the absence of any protection for an individual against it - become all-defining and all-important. Lenin expressed it in his formula "kto kogo" - who is going [or able] to do what to whom.
In this sense communism has absolutely nothing to do with any economic system [since it is a phenomenon in sociological, not economical, sphere] nor with any particular slogans, symbols like red banners or any particular ideology, albeit one could state that developed communist societies do need ideological systems. If so defined, communism [or elements thereof] has been with us since Stone Age, was not invented by Marx and surely ante-dates 1917 revolution in Russia.
Within this framework one could see that mafia families are [distorted] examples of communist type societies, that our own clintons are [or behave like, which is the same] communists, and that such tin-pot places like Idi Amin's Uganda are communist places about as much as North Korea or Cuba. Communist society is normally characterized by very weak or nonexistent forms of social self-defense [rule of law, property rights, publicity - civil society in general]. Historically, none of these were able to take serious root in Russia, which, together with the traditions of brownnosing [to the state] Orthodox church and millenia-old tradition of terroristic and despotic state, make for Russia being a communist or a protocommunist society since at least the times of Ivan the Terrible [16th century, and I would go for the 14th]. More, right now it remains about as communist as ever, with some cosmetical changes.
As an aside, in mid-19 century Karl Marx characterized [tsarist] Russia as "asiatic despotism". As the history has shown us, post-tsarist Russia has been as "asiatic" and as "despotic" as ever, and frequently worse than ever. Marx simply mistook the salient features of a real [?-proto-?]communistic society already in existence under his very nose for some peculiarities of Russia. Later we saw the same "asiatic despotism" manifesting itself in Red China, Cuba, occupied Eastern Europe, Cambodia, Ethiopia, Zimbabwe and so on - in and out of Asia.
What is claimed is that this "asiatic despotism" is the definition and the essence of what any real communist society is and looks like."
By the way, in this framework one could see that islam is merely a primitive religious flavor of communism.

[rmh47]

I think that the main reason we were successful is that we actually defeated... No, we crushed them. It's a shame we didn't do the same in Iraq.

You make an excellent point. One of the reasons we are having so much trouble in Iraq (and have had problems elsewhere as well, e.g., Somalia) is that modern warfare is too sterile. Yes, we can easily defeat the organized military forces of our opponents with almost no "collateral damage," and that is the root of the problem. The will of the populace to fight has not been eliminated. Compare Germany and Japan after WWII or the American South after the civil war (that's the War of Northern Aggression, for you Southern sympatizers).

If you go back to carpet bombing with "dumb" bombs and street to street sweeps where all resistance of any kind is crushed, destroy all electrical generating and distribution facilities, water purification and distribution systems, bridges, railroads, airports, dams and the rest of the infrastructure that makes modern life possible, eventually the will of the people to resist is utterly exhausted.

In this particular case, we should also have rounded up all religious leaders and sumarily executed them and the buried them in unmarked graves with pig carcases (see "Blackjack" Pershing's efforts in the Phillpines during the Spanish-American War). Since nothing happens unless it is Allah's will, it would be obvious that Allah had not found favor with their efforts. Use their own belief system against them.

pp111 said that Islam is incompatible with democracy. I would contend that Islam is incompatible, period. With everything. Islam is incompatible with Christianity, with Hinduism, with Buddhism, with secularism. Muslims can't get along with Sikhs, Jains, whatever, and they certainly don't get along with Jews. Heck, they don't even get along with other Muslims. Islam is a cancer on this planet, and must be eliminated.

Just my humble opinion.

[NicknamedBob]

Please stop proselytizing for Communism. It doesn't sell here.

We were talking about Islam. And Democracy.

[wai-ming]

I agree. I was confused about the meaning of your original statement.

[MarkL]

Emperor Hirohito told the Japanese to surrender. There's no similar act on behalf of the muslim savages.

But you need to look at the recent history (at the time) in Japan. Think about the Tokyo firebombing... Then, we drop 2 nuclear bombs: These single bombs, dropped from just 1 plane, destroyed a pretty darned good chunk of the cities. Hirohito knew what we did with conventional and incindiary bombs in huge waves of bombers. He didn't know that we only had (I believe) the two bombs that we dropped. He imagined that we might have had hundreds of the things, and given what we did before, he probably believed that we'd raze all of Japan to the ground.

We were off to a pretty good start with the "Shock and Awe," but we gave up way too early. Had we bombed that one city into nothingness (the one where the contractors were kidnapped, tortured, murdered, burned, and hung up on the bride), and done the same in Faluja, I'd be willing to bet that they just might have been willing to surrender.

Mark

[GSlob]

"Please stop proselytizing for Communism. It doesn't sell here. " - I will buy you a case of Coke [diet] if you find on FR a more anti-communistic FReeper than me. Now it is the third time you have earned the label "ignorant".

[taxed2death]

Your post number 23 is spot on. For this reason I would support Israel 100% in a preemptive strike (death blow) to Iran. That guy is a nut case through and through.

[NicknamedBob]

Not earned. -- Been ascribed.


History will be my judge.

[Fred Nerks]

Did you write this?

"In today's violence and terrorism stricken world, those involved in the desperate search for peace, should understand the basic Islamic principles and thoughts. Dar al-Islam (Islamic world), with whatsoever there-in, is the perfect abode of peace and prosperity, which is achievable only by the institution of the divine laws of the only true God, Allah. Islam is the complete and perfect code of life for governing perfectly all aspects of human life: social, moral, spiritual, religious, political, economic and everything else. Extra-Islamic doctrines, such as democracy, are inferior to the divine Islamic codes of governance. Outside interventions and democracy in Islamic countries are, thus, not necessary; neither do Muslims accept it.

On the other hand, Dar al-Harb, which does not hold such perfect code of governance, has scope of improvement. Hence, the imposition of democracy and freedom were quickly accepted in countries like Japan, Germany and Italy etc. The international policy-makers who might be at a fix over their repeated failures to achieve those goals in Muslim countries which are easily achievable elsewhere, must understand these fundamental distinctions between Islamic and the non-Islamic countries."

http://www.islam-watch.org/AlamgirHussain/ImposingDemocracy.htm

[Minn]

Germany and Japan willingly democratized only after being reduced to rubble. That tends to focus the democratic impulses

[himno hero]

christ fed many from that one loaf of bread,,, is thought to be one of the basis for communal/ communism.

I just thought I would ask why 100% of third world countries are islamic?

[GSlob]

Well, pass it to the admin mods. If they ever find me advocating communism [as you alleged], be it now, in the past, or in the future - let them kick me out.

[Killborn]

The people of Afghanistan and Iraq beg to differ.

[Loud Mime]

I had a tagline a few months ago that said: An unbeaten enemy is still an enemy.

After the criticism of what the Israelis did in Lebanon, we have proof that the liberals don't want the enemies defeated.
We're back to spitballs and the results show it.

[LadyNavyVet]

It appears the opposite is happening--"moderate" Muslim countries are becoming more fundamentalist.

[Hamza01]

Get rid of all muslims.

Allow non-muslims to immigrate.

Sounds familiar. Will you be wearing full dress black with double lightning bolts?

[bayouranger]

Example: The election of Hamas to power.


Exactly! Islam will create a theocracy, as always shown through out history and don't parade that fiasco in turkey that murdered millions of infidels to get their way b/c I will pi$$ all over it.

[WhirlwindAttack]

IIRC, the same thing was said about Japan after WWII. Funny how they took to it when it was forced on them. It's a shame we didn't use the same technique in Iraq from day 1.

Yes but he handed the Japanese their asses first. We did not pussy foot around with them. Crush your enemies. Drive them before you. And hear the lamentations of the women. Then maybe you can rehabilitate them democratically.

[steve-b]

Nonsense. Are you really so ignorant (no lesser word will do) that you think that Stalin would have been A-OK with one of his subjects thinking that Communism sucks as long as he pulls his weight on the collective farm or whatever?