Posted on 11/18/2006 5:43:33 PM PST by Dane
Sounds like a great place. Is the entire Wilderness area open, or are there restricted areas? I'll make a mental note to try and get there sometime. BTW you can scratch the Joyce Kilmer service area off your list of places to visit unless you'd like to meet the former Governor of New Jersey sometime.
Hardy har har, you're a real laugh riot.
The 1,300 families and their descendents is the figure given earlier in this thread, whose land was taken away and were promised a new road by FDR, which neo-FDR, heath shuler is screwing them over on.
uh I guess you can't read, shuler himself in the article is continuing the broken promise of FDR of a new road.
3. A cash settlement alternative providing for payment of $52 million to Swain County. All of the proposed construction lies in Swain County, N.C. Swain County is a signatory party to the 1943 Agreement. The Commissioners of Swain County, by a vote of 4-1 have resolved to ask for the cash settlement in lieu of any further construction.http://www.wildlaw.org/north-shore.htmWhy a cash settlement? Since the “purpose and need” of the EIS is to resolve the 1943 Agreement issue, the position of Swain County as a signatory is critical. The county has repeatedly stated to the National Park Service (NPS) that the only satisfaction of the 1943 Agreement it will consider is a cash settlement. The State of North Carolina is also a signatory of the 1943 Agreement. Governor Mike Easley has notified the NPS that he supports the cash settlement. The Board of Aldermen of Bryson City, the county seat, unanimously supports this stand.
But yet you're ardent for supporting the road. Fulfilling a 'promise' simply because a Republican is for it and the Democrat against it. As for your '1300 families' apparently most of them have moved on.
Here, the group will spend two weeks preparing the area for the annual visit the NPS coordinates for folks with family buried in Posey and Pilkey cemetery. While the crew spends time at each graveyard, the majority of the two weeks is used maintaining and replacing footbridges, clearing trees, and repairing the approach trails to the cemeteries. On Sunday, at the conclusion of the two weeks, the group will assist families on their annually scheduled outing. The visitors will pay respects at most once a year. Shuler estimates that fifty to sixty people will cross the lake this coming Sunday, but that depends on the weather.Controversy Over Proposed Road Accelerates
An alternative proposal to give impoverished Swain County 52 million dollars—a bargain at a tenth of the cost of the road—enjoys majority support from those on the county commission, which grapples each year with a tiny tax base thanks to the park; eighty-six percent of the county’s land, which includes 200,000 acres of the Great Smoky Mountain National Park, is publicly owned. But no formal offer is forthcoming, and members of the association, many of whom maintain that their heritage is not for sale for any amount of money, consider a cash settlement a nonstarter. They are convinced that the 1943 agreement, along with letters to individual families promising a road, makes their case ironclad.Lost in the WildernessUnfortunately for the proponents, the agreement makes no reference to just when the road would be built, other than a vague clause that reads: “as soon after the present war as funds are made available therefor by Congress.” A short stretch from the county seat of Bryson City to the park boundary was completed in 1959. By 1972, the National Park Service had paved another six miles, but environmental concerns halted further construction. That leaves thirty-odd miles between the western dead end of what’s now called the “Road to Nowhere” and the town of Deals Gap near the Tennessee side of the park. An attempt to force the Park Service to honor the commitment to complete the road was dismissed by a U.S. District Court in 1983 on the grounds that the proponents had no legal standing.
So dismissed by a US District Court and supported by the local government. And a vague open ended 'promise'. Tell us again the morality of why the national government should spend over $600 million for something that's not wanted by even everyone in the area?
BTW, interesting that you left this passage out.
Road proponents, who believe the fight is more about cultural heritage than wilderness, say they, too, respect nature. They carpooled long before gasoline was three dollars a gallon, understand the need to recognize the limits of the land they live on, and don’t want to see the countryside gobbled up by rampant development. But if they were to draw inspiration from the writings of an American environmentalist of letters, it would probably be Gary Snyder rather than Thoreau. Asked for the one thing that an individual can do to save the planet, Snyder famously replied, “Stay put.” As he wrote in his 2004 book, Danger on the Peaks, “have a place and get involved in what can be done in that place.”
Staying put wasn’t an option for the families forced to leave the north shore sixty years ago, says Monteith, who disparages the hypocrisy of radical environmentalists who have no connection to the park. “People move ten times before they settle down. The land doesn’t mean anything to them,” he says. “But to us, it’s everything we have. I think some of these people haven’t got it yet.”
But members of the North Shore Road Association beg to differ. David Monteith, a county commissioner who spends much of his free time offering PowerPoint lectures on the road’s merits at schools, colleges, community groups, and to anyone else willing to listen, bristles at the notion that his family’s cemetery is surrounded by wilderness. “When they tell you this is a roadless area, that’s not true. Six thousand people lived there, and there were 600 miles of road,” he says, adding that one of the displaced communities, Proctor, even had electricity before Asheville did. “There’s roads all over these mountains,” agrees park maintenance worker Tony Collura, who helps clear the trails for cemetery decoration days, when the Park Service brings in SUVs and a four-wheeler by barge. Collura notes that one of the “trails” can even support a school bus.
I just think that a road would be better suited for the economic needs of the county, would be there in cases of emergency and would help out Swain county(i.e the residual jobs, businesses) than to give 52 million to politicans where it will probably go into a blackhole within the County council.
I also notice the hypocrisy of the Park service to use their SUV's throughout the area but to give the familes the promised road where they can visit their homesteads and cemetaries is a big no-no.
It reeks of elitism. But that's your right to side with the elitist enviromental groups.
Also if that "promise" was so vague, why was the road started but stopped after radical enviromental groups became involved.
And also about the US District Court order, I guess that you are all for the Kelo decision by SCOTUS.
Would be there in cases of emergency to help Swain County out?!? Well that tells me you have never been there and have no idea of the situation. It is at the dead end of a road!! No one lives out there. And it would not go anywhere or connect to another major road. The only possible road it would connect to is 129 which leads to the Tail of the Dragon, an impassible route during the winter (and even in the summer you cannot go through there faster than 25 mph because of the curves). So connection for emergency? Nope sorry, does not fly. Residual jobs? Exactly how many jobs are going to be created by a road that still will go nowhere? You can not build in a national park so you are not going to have massive building. Tourism will not suddenly ramp up over this and I doubt it ever would. The only jobs that would be created would be jobs to build the road. Government contract jobs. More people relying on the State. Good job there, you are reliving the vision of FDR.
You also know nothing of the community. I seriously doubt 52 million would disappear into the County Commission. The whole county is not that big and not that populated
Face it. You have never been there, you know nothing of the situation other than the fact a Democrat is against it, so by partisanship you must be for it. There are back roads back in there, most of them dirt, some early paving but that is about it. The other matter is it is now a federal park. So in your partisanship you would choose to destroy more of the Smoky Mountain National Park without knowing a thing about it. And you can claim compassion for a supposed promise. How special...
Can any knowledgeable person tell us whether it's politically feasible to take out Shuler in 2008? It seems to me this is one of the seats we must win if we're to take back the House.
The county may not be so populated in comparison to other counties but it doesn't take long for the commissioners to spend money, example of one wasted amount: the county bought land belonging to another politician's relative there for more than twice its value well over $52 million which tehy would spend in a flash. Charles Taylor had said that the road should be built, it was a federal contract, the 1943 Agreement then Swain Co. should discuss and tell them how much revunue was lost by it not being completed before. It should have been built earlier when costs were lower. Look how much the feds spend on other things, then people harp about a road which was a contract witht he TVA, people of swain Co and state of NC... and condition of the land being turned over to the Park from the TVA even. If they can't honor the conditions they should give back the land.
The road issue is NOT a partisan issue. It is not a democrat/republican issue though some (not all) the county commissioners are democrat. There are more democrats than republicans in Swain County so that is why the democrats won the offices all except Sheriff.
There are already two democrats planning to run against Shuler in next election.
I can't believe there are some on here who simply think FDR promised the county a road. It was a federal government contract, a legal, binding document between the TVA, the State of NC and the PEOPLE of Swain Co. NC. The state fulfilled their part of the 1943 Agreement by building the road from Bryson City up to the edge of the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. That part of the road is known as "New Fontana Highway." That is the one Heath's communities' road branches off of. The TVA's part of the agreement was to build a road to replace the flooded road, it would lead back up into that area allowing people to return to their family members' graves and link up with Deal's Gap TN. The people were forced to sell their land... 44,400 acres of the land taken to build Fontana Dam/lake was not going to be flooded and some of the people were told they could return to their land, buy it back at the same cost they were paid. The acreage was measured from the air...so if you are familiar with the mountain terrain, you know the landowner is losing out when it is measured by the air as the mountain land is not flat. They were paid the second lowest rate in history for their land.
Those who had their land taken by EMINENT DOMAIN which you all seem to think is fine and grand, they were not paid their land's value. If they refused to sell, they weren't given any for their land and were threatened with jail for hindering the war effort.
All of the people who are opposing the road ought to be ashamed. YOu should all remember the great sacrfice made by these people in time of war. Fontana Dam was built to supply hydroelectric power to the ammunitions factories in Oak Ridge TN so the bomb could be built to end the war and save more lives than would be saved as it went on. I guess everyone would rather be speaking German and having not having the freedoms we have today?
I think everyone should learn about what these folks went through ... half the population of Swain County was displaced at the time. There were several small towns on the North Shore of Fontana Lake. For the one who said Swain County is just looking to get lucky and he/she wouldn't give them a dime, maybe you should realize that the reason Swain County always ranks 1st, 2nd or 3rd in highest unemployment rate and highest poverty rate in the state is because the government owns 86% of the land. There is no tax base, the main industry here is tourism. The road would bring in more tourists which would provide more jobs. If you read the Environmental Impact Studies put out by Arcadis, the group doing the studies about the Road (independent group) you can see how the road will help the area. Take their word for it. The figures don't lie.
That is not an 'untouched' wilderness area. There were several small towns there... in the 20's there was a movie theater with plush velvet seats. The foremen of Ritter Lumber company had 2 story houses with marble fireplaces. Tehre still are some houses up there including the Hall Cabin which is on the National Register of Historic Places.
The area is rich in history and culture. There are 600 miles of old roads and old road beds there. The reason it took so long to start building the road (New Fontana Highway then the Road to Nowhwere which goes 6 miles into the park)is because Swain County was still paying off the government bond debt on the road flooded by Fontana Lake until the early 70's. Then the road was stopped due to the Sierra Club saying they would be cutting into anakeesta rock--it was a ploy to stop the road. Even the top man from the Federal Highway Commission admitted that was not a concern, they deal with that all the time and know how to keep the acid from leeching on it.
Also they have jacked up teh cost of building the road. Comparable roads have been built for much less... an independent road firm estimated the cost much lower also. Who cares what the park service wants road or not? The contract when the land was turned over from the TVA to the Park service after the war, it was understood the park service would take over the TVA's part of the contract to complete the road. It was understood, a promise to the people who lived in Swain County at the time that the road would be built that as soon as the war ended, congress would appropriate money for it to be built. It wasn't a question about "if the money will or won't be appropriated" it was understood that it would be... there are copies of letters which clearly state that in a time when men's words meant something.
To the person who said his family cemeteries aren't in the forest but in populated areas. These people's family were buried near their small towns and homes also at the time. The government moved graves which would be under the waterlevel but for the ones on the 44,400 acres, they were told it was not necessary to relocate the graves and there was no time for that...they were told, "As soon as the war ends, we will build a road to replace the one which willb e flooded by the lake then you can go home and can go visit your relatives' graves."
Think how you would feel if you were a woman whose husband was away at war and you were with your 5 children, the youngest two in diapers. TVA officials knock on your door and say, "You have to sell your house and land, this is the price we are giving you." and you respond, "This land has been in my husband's family for several generations, it is not for sale, you will hav eto talk to him"... then they threaten to put you in jail for hindering the war effort. YOu have no one to watch your children...you are forced to sign the papers. Then you and all your neighbors, whole town are forced to move. Three years after the war has ended you are living over an hour away and you think your husband has died in the war. But what has happened is he has returned home and found the road to it flooded, the house burned by the government, no way to reach his family, no neighbors to ask where his family is. The people got no relocation assistance at all. The amount they were paid was less than 1/3 the land's value. This actually did happen. It took the husband 3 years to find his family.
This is just one story. It shouldn't be a decision made by the "leadership" of Swain Co... even though one county commissioner is a road supporter... it was a contract between the people who livedin Swain County at that time. Some of the county commissioners in the election before last one said they were for the road and then after teh election changed their stance.
There were some people who were in the Sierra Club who came to some of the road hearings opposing the road and heard the stories and changed over to supporting the road. In Gatlinburg, there were people from other countries at the Road h earing there to oppose the road. We asked them why they were against the road. One said she liked the pretty trees at Slickrock Wilderness Area. She wasn't in the same park! Turned out most were foreign students who had been told to come and say they were against the road. She wasn't aware there were towns and houses there, she didn't know there are roads and old road beds there which can be linked up to cut costs and cut environmental damage.
I think it's a sad day when people don't do what is right. Before speaking up you should familiarize yourself with what happened there. Listen to stories about how the land was taken by eminent domain and how that part was above the high water mark. It was all important for the war effort. We all love our freedoms we should remember the sacrifices made by people such as athe ones from the small towns which were there along the North Shore of Fontana Lake.
IT would be nice if you would go to some of the cemetery visits... you would see how inadequate transportation is and how the Park service does all in its power to discourage people from visiting. They don't provide enough boats, one time the boat didn't return. They never have enough all terrain vehicles to give the people a ride all the way there... nice some of you can go and hike miles and miles. The cemetery groups let the older people ride first, the others walk, sometimes 6 miles for one visit. It's an all day think and leaving early, getting back late and sometimes never having gotten to go all the way to the cemetery due to not enough transportation. There are roads, the park service drives on them. One time the park service loaded up some of the older people in a horse trailer, it had hauled manure the day before and had not been cleaned out. The trailer came unhitched from the truck and rolled down the hillside into the lake. The people were badly bruised. That is what the Park service calls "adequate transportation."
The area has so much history, it would be great to tell the story of the area and the people there in addition to the road, a museum would be a good think, the story needs telling lest everyone forget it!
And you're usually entitled to call the party that breaks their word a lousy, stinking welsher and liar. If you don't intend to keep your word, don't give it. If your word is no good, then you are no good.
On that we can agree. I can even see returning the land back to the people however that would cut a good swath out of the park wouldn't it? Please understand my concern is not environmental per se. My concern is more historical. But I also understand the need for jobs in the area. My point is what is the real purpose of this road. Taylor was not doing it out of the goodness of his heart and I seriously doubt he was doing it for the constituents or a 70 year old government 'promise'.
What guarantees are there that this won't lead to something else, and then something else. My concern is to prevent another Hwy 441 situation.
I remember the area as a child and loved the deep areas of the mountains especially Franklin and Murphy area. Lived up there seven more years as an adult in Cullowhee (Cullowhere?) and Asheville. And what has happened to some areas is nothing short of destruction.
The 'half-backs' and tourists add to the area's income but at the same time in some ways are destroying what makes the mountains special. Growth is important but it should be studied with an eye on keeping the heritage of the mountains alive in other ways than the Mountain Heritage Festival WCU throws every year. That includes the land as well as the history because in some ways they are one in the same
This seat should be easy pickings for you in 2008, Congressman...
That would be Torie.
I also pinged the other seemingly ALgore like limosine liberals to your reply.
NCmtnGirl, you go girl! :^)
Ah yes. Because the atomic bomb was dropped on Berlin wasn't it? Oh that's right. Germany was defeated by conventional means. So Oak Ridge had nothing to do with it did it? So, no I'm not 'ashamed'
The point is
A) it is unpopulated now and
B) it's a national park.
Think how you would feel if you were a woman whose husband was away at war and you were with your 5 children, the youngest two in diapers. TVA officials knock on your door and say, "You have to sell your house and land, this is the price we are giving you." and you respond, "This land has been in my husband's family for several generations, it is not for sale, you will have to talk to him"... then they threaten to put you in jail for hindering the war effort. YOu have no one to watch your children...you are forced to sign the papers.
Three great uncles in the area lost some or all of their land to the government for other 'projects'. Care to try again?
You still haven't explained where this road's going to go. Hwy 28? That's the only viable exit. Are you kidding me?!? Take 28 to 129, yeah that'll be fun for the whole family...
What do you plan for it? Pigeon Forge of the East? Because Lord knows that place turned out so well....
You see Dane's never been there. He talks a good game but he has no idea what in the hell he's talking about. I have and still have kin up that away. I don't have a dog in this hunt as much as the folks of Swain County but I do feel considering it is going to affect land I know further out I should be able to voice an opinion. Yes there are old roads out there. Yes there are old small mountain towns out there. And yes there's quite a few cemetaries out there. But I see nothing that can be gained by cutting another road through some beautiful land other than to allieve an old promise by the government. Hell if we're sticking to promises we should really turn a good bit of it back to the Cherokee shouldn't we? Considering that's the other side of my family, I'm all for that!! ;)
The area has so much history, it would be great to tell the story of the area and the people there in addition to the road, a museum would be a good think, the story needs telling lest everyone forget it!
Again we agree. And I'm not fully against the road, but you know and I know that two lane roads turn quickly into four lanes once the tourists find it. And I don't think anyone can gain from having another main road cutting across there. That's my concern.
Why yes, monetary restitution to the Swain County politicians and not to the displaced families themselves.
A) it is unpopulated now and
B) it's a national park
Uh billbears, so I guess the ends justify the means(i.e FDR promising a road to "nowhere" to pacify the "yahoos").
Oh BTW, wasn't "the ends justifying the means" one of the nazi's core beliefs.
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