Posted on 11/16/2006 5:33:58 AM PST by Mr. Brightside
WASHINGTON -- Like many fellow Democratic politicians, Sen. Barack Obama is no stranger to the pulpit.
But in December, Obama will go where few progressive Democrats usually venture--to a large, conservative evangelical church that boasts a Sunday attendance of more than 20,000 people.
Even more unusual is that he'll attend at the invitation of megachurch Pastor Rick Warren, evangelical icon and author of the popular Christian book "The Purpose-Driven Life."
Aides to Obama say he will appear at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., on Dec. 1, World AIDS Day.
"Sen. Obama has a deep respect for Mr. Warren's commitment to fighting AIDS and poverty," said Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor.
While he was working on his latest book, "The Audacity of Hope," Obama asked Warren to help by reading one of his draft chapters. Warren issued the invitation to Obama to speak at the church next month.
The messages that Friday will focus on AIDS and HIV, a key area of ministry for Saddleback Church. While many conservative Christians have shied away from AIDS because of their discomfort with its connections to premarital sex and homosexuality, Warren and his wife, church co-founder Kay Warren, have been vocal advocates for patients living with the disease.
Shortly before the release of his latest book, Obama issued a call to progressives to shed bias against religious people and to recognize "overlapping values."
(Excerpt) Read more at chicagotribune.com ...
Sometimes there are situations in life that challenge our view of how things ought to be done. As Keith Green said: "Nobody's perfect, except for the Lord, and even the best [are] bound to fall." Nobody is going to be right 100% of the time.
We see in Philippians 1:18 that Paul didn't care why somebody preached Christ as long as Christ was preached. While it's important to act as the Bereans, we can't at the same time put God in a box especially when we see the Holy Spirit convicting people through Warren's ministry.
The Bible is clear on one thing. We are saved by the grace of God through faith in God. There is nothing we do to earn salvation (Eph 2:8-9). How God uses his Word and who God uses to spread the gospel message is entirely up to Him. If the Church is growing through ways in which we don't think are correct, perhaps we have put God in a box and it's our thinking about how God works that needs to change.
If they had the New Testament at their disposal, what would the Bereans report where Warren writes: "Jesus, who died on the cross for you" and tells his readers to "receive his forgiveness for your sins" (page 58).
Warren doesn't say the Christian life is easy or that once you're a Christian all your problems go away. Warren goes on (pages 81-83) to state "Surrender is hard work. In our case, it is intense warfare against our self-centered nature ... Surrender doesn't weaken you; it strenghtens you... You are free to choose what you surrender to, but you are not free from the consequences of that choice... Surrender is not the best way to live; it is the only way to live... There is a moment of surrender, and there is the practice of surrender, which is moment-by-moment and lifelong."
That one link mattered to me because the author quoted Warren and stated Warren never wrote about the cross and sin; when in reality two sentences later Warren wrote about the cross and sin (page 58). The author denied Warren wrote about central tenets to Christianity, the cross and sin, when two sentences later Warren wrote about those central tenets to Christianity: the cross and sin.
Yes, Satan masquerades as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14-15). Yet Warren teaches the cross and sin.
You may not agree with his methods or style, but Warren teaches the gospel message. The Holy Spirit is convicting people to give their life to the Lord through Warren's ministry.
Another writer weighs in.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/KevinMcCullough/2006/11/19/why_is_obamas_evil_in_rick_warrens_pulpit
However, some choose to ignore them.
At least you can't say that no one has ever given you specifics related to their disagreement with Warren and The PDL.
At least you can't say that no one has ever given you specifics related to their disagreement with Warren and The PDL.
Indeed, and I thank you for that. At least now I have a better understanding of the concerns some have with Warren.
I don't agree with the concerns because Warren teaches the true gospel message. I don't see how anybody can deny Warren teaches the true gospel message, but thanks to you I do see reasons why some people disagree with this style.
While I don't always agree with what Warren might say in his books, and I certainly disagree with Warren on some non-theological issues, I'm more concerned with those who disagree with Warren's teaching of the true gospel message.
As I see it, Christ is preached and all believers should rejoice as the apostle Paul did in a similar situation (Philippians 1:18).
I am surprised that you are surprised:)
If you look back at my posts, I never raised any concern over Warren's presentation of the Gospel, in the PDL.
I can rejoice along side of you that the Gospel was preached, and even that your relative testified to accepting Christ, but Phillipians 1:18 doesn't excuse the actions/motives of those, with bad motives, who are being referenced.
And if you look at the specific issues I raised, none of them were related, at all, to style. They were, however, related to content.
The New Testament is clear about avoiding, and refuting, false teachers...but Warren endorses them (In the PDL and on www.pastors.com). This is not an issue of style.
Is this not a problem for you?
If not, why?
Warren uses paraphrases (The Message, The NLT) that distort the known content of scriptural passages and then makes false conclusions (look at The PDL related to the John 4 passage that I mentioned previously...This is a clear distortion of God's Word). This is not an issue of style.
Is this not a problem for you?
If not, why?
The PDL pages 9-10 make false statements and false conclusions about fourty days and uses "bad examples" (your term) in an attempt to support the false statements and false conclusions (and what is a Spiritual Journey?). This, along with the use of paraphrases, is not an issue of style.
Given that we are to correctly handle the Word, is this not a problem for you?
And...It is a pastor's duty to feed and protect the sheep. Endorsing false teachers, and their teaching, and distorting the plain teaching of Scripture represents a failure to fulfill this duty.
I can't agree to disagree on these items (not even agreeably)...They are unacceptable and completely unrelated to issues of style...Saying that these issues are only related to style is like saying Sen. Obama at Saddleback is only style related.
We know, from Scripture, that wolves will be sent in among the Church and that Satan masquerades as an angel of light and his demons as workers of righteousness...How are we able to discern the difference between the masquerading wolf and the Truth (this is an important question)? Regards,
From everything I can tell you don't have a problem with the statement of faith at Warren's Saddleback church. This is the core of what is taught by Warren. Because you didn't comment on it earlier I don't know where you stand on the statement of faith. What is your opinion about the statement of faith at Warren's church?
I'm glad to hear you rejoice the gospel message is preached in the PDL. I wasn't sure where you stood here.
Many Christians break theological issues into primary and secondary issues.
How would you define a primary theological issue?
How would you define a secondary theological issue?
Would you say your concerns with the PDL are primary or secondary theological issues?
Specific #2 - Warren's association with Cho, and Cho's occultic Fourth Dimension: This specific is documented by www.pastors.com, Rick Warren's Ministry Toolbox, July 25, 2001, Issue #17, Will The Next Generation Church Be On The Internet?, by Rick Warren.I tried the URL you provided and it didn't work, but I did find this link: Breakfast With David Yonggi Cho And Rick Warren, so it appears they moved the link at their site.It reads: "A few weeks ago, I had breakfast with David Yonggi Cho..."
Find it and read it for yourself (www.pastors.com/RWMT/printerfriendly.asp?id=17&artid=537&expand=1). Warren says that he has read Cho's book on miracles (The Fourth Dimension) and asks Cho how American Pastors could be more open to miracles. Warren also asks Cho to pray for American pastors.
Depending on the browser you're using, you can easily run a word search on the entire page for Fourth Dimension. From my search the book isn't mentioned. I've tried searching for Cho and then searching every page from the serach results and didn't find any references to the Fourth Dimension. If it's there I couldn't find it.
Also, Warren doesn't ask how American Pastors could be more open to miracles, but instead asks: "Do you think American churches should be more open to the prayer for miracles?" (It's the second to the last question.)
Warren does ask Cho to pray for American pastors. Here is Cho's prayer:
Heavenly Father, we thank you for many wonderful pastors and lay Christians in America. America is a strong foundation of Christianity through which the whole world received great blessings and benefits. We are now praying many, very rich blessings be upon each and every American pastor and Christian -- so that God may once again use America to send missionaries to the end of the world and to change the world for Jesus Christ. In Jesus Name I pray …
Warren doesn't mention Cho's book by name in that interview...If I remember correctly, Warren says that he read Cho's book on visions and miracles (or maybe dreams and miracles).
A Google search for "Cho's Fourth Dimension" will give you plenty of hits.
I know, but I was looking for the reference at pastors.com.
Warren's teaching, actions, writings and associations are stand alone and can be measured against Scripture as such.
My concerns with Warren would fall into the primary (essential) category (one can't endorse and associate with false teachers, nor can one distort the Scriptures and remain true to the duties of a pastor and the doctrine of the gospel).
I trust that you and your family had a good Thanksgiving!
It is referenced by Warren stating that he had read Cho's book on dreams/visions and miracles in that interview.
As I suspected, we don't agree on the definintion of a primary theological issue, and that could make further discussion difficult because we'll be talking right past each other.
I've read your books on Vision and DreamsI read that earlier but your post referenced Cho's Fourth Dimension. I looked and looked for Fourth and Dimension and miracles but didn't see anything referring to Fourth Dimension.
You said something about endorsing false teachers and from that I inferred you were referring to Warren endorsing Cho. Where does Warren endorse Cho or his book(s)?
Our Thanksgiving was wonderful. The reason? Less people, I think... Large families and all, less people can be nice once in a while.
That is my point - you don't understand eternity. But you were throwing the term around. My experience based reality allows me to delve into eternity - you, it seems, are limited to words in a book.
Do you agree that truth is what is eternal, unchangeable and invulnerable?
I enjoyed Thanksgiving. Thank you. Hope you did as well.
Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas is speaking at the same event as Obama. Anybody have a problem with that?
Things must be really deteriorating if preachers are now enticing politicians to preach.
If I want to know what Warren, himself, believes, it will be found in his writings, actions and associations.
And Warren isn't selling Saddleback's satement of faith to 30 million individuals and 400,000 churches...He has sold The PDL, The PDC and his other 40 Days PD stuff to them.
It is an independent analysis based on the content there within.
Posting the interview of Cho on his website and asking him to pray for American Pastors and revealing that he has read his book is an implied endorsement. Warren has also preached at Cho's church.
Should pastors be associating with false teachers and endorsing them and their teachings?
Do those two issues not go to the heart of the primary role of a pastor, which is to feed and protect the sheep?
Why would Warren be involved in such things and are they sloppiness and/or purposeful?
Again, how does a Christian discern between those who are masquerading and those who are the real thing? What is the answer to this question (you haven't answered it several times)?
On my way to Church...Have a good Sunday.
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