Posted on 11/15/2006 4:31:47 AM PST by shrinkermd
WASHINGTON, Nov. 14 — One of the most resonant arguments in the debate over Iraq holds that the United States can move forward by pulling its troops back, as part of a phased withdrawal...
...This is the case now being argued by many Democrats, most notably Senator Carl Levin of Michigan... who asserts that the withdrawal of American troops from Iraq should begin within four to six months.
But this argument is being challenged by a number of military officers, experts and former generals, including some who have been among the most vehement critics of the Bush administration’s Iraq policies....
...Anthony C. Zinni, the former head of the United States Central Command and one of the retired generals who called for the resignation of Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, argued that any substantial reduction of American forces over the next several months would be more likely to accelerate the slide to civil war than stop it.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
Now that the election is over, the NY Times can reduce their Propaganda Alert Level to Code Yellow. This allows them to print articles like this. They'd never have printed this prior to the election because it makes Bush's policies look better.
Honestly? No. I just knew that most likely any source who would say things like that would be one that was funded by folks with a liberal agenda. It's a pain in the butt to research that stuff, but EVERY TIME, and I MEAN EVERY time, I have taken the time to do it, I find the same people are behind it all. You just have to connect the dots!
So there!
:-P
LOL!
One of the most frustrating things I've found is people like you who claim to have talked to people over there and then make statements that prove you haven't talked to anyone who's been in Iraq.
The only IF that the soldiers and more importantly the people of Iraq have is "IF the new congress pulls us out...what's going to happen to Iraq?"
From my own experience and continuing conversationswith friends that serve over there now...they have no doubt in their mission only frustration at how it's being portrayed in the media back here.
Good things are being done and strides are being made every day...yet all the media focuses on is death.
It's not the tactics on the ground that are the problem...it's the people back here that have no clue and the media too timid to leave the Green Zone in Iraq that are producing the doubt that people like you claim that soldiers like me are having in our mission in Iraq.
You didn't ask me any serious questions in your reply...you only regurgitated media talking points. I've been asked the same questions by Libtards at DU...so it makes me wonder where you are getting your info from.
If you really want people to change their opinion on Iraq...then the media needs to have it's collective feet held to the fire and have them remove their leftist agenda and re-insert some honest reporting into their stories on Iraq.
In the year that I was there...500 schools were renovated in Baaghdad alone...power and water infrastructure were rebuilt from the ground up...a farming community five miles from Baghdad had a water pipeline built...something they'd been wating THIRTY THREE YEARS to get...an Artillery Lt. Col. and his soldiers helped refurbish a privately run school for Down Syndrome kids and through donations from the Kansas City Downs Syndrome Assoc. started a pipeline of supplies to ensure that the kids had everything they needed.
How much sir of that did you hear in the alleged Mainstream Media?
So before you go posing those insepid talking points you called serious questions...take a look at where and who you are getting your information from and ask yourself if you are getting the whole story.
I'm sure glad we didn't have that attitude during WWII where the first two years of that war we lost huge numbers of soldiers and equipment such that what we've expended in Iraq is insignificant by comparison. This is especially true when you can’t even define you goal, which appears to me to be the case in Iraq -
I'm always amazed listening to or reading comments from those who have zero access to information on the topic they are commenting on. What brilliant insight do you have as to what the goals in Iraq are? What access to the minds of the military leaders in Iraq do you posses? I do not see much likelihood that the resources we have brought to the task are even close to those required to achieve even temporary stability, . . .
Interesting that the commanding general in Iraq and his military leaders/advisors all state that the troop numbers in Iraq are sufficient for the goals and job they are working towards. The reason we face the challenges in Iraq we have is because of all the anti-American, anti-Bush propaganda coming out of this country which feeds the enemies desire to continue their sectarian violence in hopes that enough Americans can be manipulated into forcing our Government to give up. You and those like you who continue bashing our country and what we are fighting for in Iraq are providing the aid and comfort our enemies are using to win the political battle, while losing every military battle we engage them in. If we lose this war it will be for the same reason we lost in Viet Nam - Politics and the weakness of namby pamby nay sayers in our own country. The enemy can't win this war without you Individuals, families, business – and even nations – sometimes find themselves “committed” to unrealistic goals. Or perhaps worse, in situations in which they are no longer even able to define realistic goals at all, and simply struggle blindly onwards towards defeat because the prospect of defeat is itself too painful to contemplate
Again, you are being a useful tool of our enemies with this hyperbole. What do you know of the goals or strategies in Iraq? And what do you know of what the average Iraqi wants from this country? Have you spoken with anyone living in Iraq who wants a peaceful country? My son has. My nephew has. My family knows many young men that our sons went to school with who've talked with Iraqi's and they know what they want for themselves and from our country. Until you place your boots on the ground in Iraq what do you really know of the situation? If you wish to be a cut-and-runner, then please stay out of the conflict. But, allow our troops to complete their mission and give the Iraqi people and opportunity to build a peaceful country. As long as you, and people like you (especially those in Congress) continue making uninformed comments which provide aid and comfort to our enemies, it is you and people like you who have the blood of our soldiers and innocent Iraqi's on your hands. Our troops should be allowed to finish the mission and give the Iraqi's the country they deserve.
1) When the "job is done, what is the outcome going to look like? What kind of government can we expect will be in place? Will it be friendly, or at least neutral, toward the US and Israel?
2) Assuming the job can be done, can it be done with the resources at hand?
3) If not, can we get the American people to support increasing them?
I don't expect most posters here don’t want to ask themselves these questions –at least, they never seem to get answered. And I suppose if I keep asking them, I'll eventually get zotted and I like this place, so I'll shut up now.
But in my defense these were my concerns before this war started it started, I was asking these same questions back them when I was reading estimates by the military of 300-400K on the ground and a long occupation, while listening to the Administration downplay the manpower concerns and Pundits issue optimistic accounts of the reception we would receive from the Iraqis when no one - neither I nor anyone else - could possibly know how there things would play out.
And thinking "This is crazy- if we are going to go in, go in with resources at the HIGH end of the estimates, and prepare the voters for a long occupation."
And what worried me the most was that I was getting the sense that hard questions were not being asked, and that anyone who DID ask them was either being ignored or tossed out onto the street. And the reason for my concern was this: more than once in my business career I watched entire organizations taken down by this sort of "visionary leadership" and this sort of marginalization of the people who asking the inconvenient questions instead of getting out of the way and letting the people who knew better "just get the job done".
Watching it made quite an impression on me, and by the second or third time around I had a name for the process: "When Dreams Become Delusions"
Thank God this country didn't have many people like you after Pearl Harbor, or we'd have lost that war and all be speaking German or Japanese right now.
Bumping STRAIGHT to the top.
Both this and your next post.
Usually though, in both cases, their opinions come down to two big "ifs":
- If we don’t change our tactics will lose / if we change or tactics we can win.
- If we don’t get more troops on the ground we will lose / if we get more troops on the ground we can win
Tell me please how many people you personally know who've had boots on the ground? What ranks were these soldiers? What jobs did they do? How much access to intelligence did they (you) have? I have personally known nearly 30 young men who've served in Iraq - either young men who wrestled in High School with my sons, or were from other schools who wrestled against my sons, or people I've met and talked to who've been in Iraq. Their ranks ranged from E-3 to Captain, and not one single soldier has made the comments you seem to be getting from those you claim to be talking to. Not one single soldier. I've also had discussions with soldiers who are currently in Iraq who are on FR, and not one has made the comments you keep refering to. Every single one has told me that we not only can win this war, but we are winning the war. And, if the idiots in Washington would shut up and allow our military to do their jobs without the politico's comments giving aid and comfort to our enemies, we would be able to finish the job in a much shorter time frame. And, again, please tell me what access you have to the military intelligence which suggests to you that what our current generals on the ground in Iraq keep saying is wrong? Stop listening to the Lame Stream Media who have only the agenda of making President Bush look bad, and are not interested in winning this war.
Hi Star. What is meant by "Bumping"? I've seen that before, but I'm clueless.
Also, what next post?
Amazing to me how people who haven't been on the ground, or have had a family member on the ground in Iraq can get away with expressing opinions that are meaningless.
Allegra, please keep yourself safe. You are always in my prayers, along with all our brave heroes.
You've made some excellent points in this post. I completely concur with your assessment of the fact that we should be further along in this war if the ill-liberal idiots would get out of the way.
When I "bump" your post, my post appears at the top of your pings page and also on mine. :-)
Basically I was giving you kudos for your posts in #85 and #86 -- along the lines of a mega-dittos. :-)
If we leave now we will just have to come back in 5 years. Since we are already there, we might as well stay.
Thanks. Just expressing my frustration at such inanity of comments by someone who doesn't have a clue. So, "bump" is a means of identifying someone else's comments in their own post?
Sort of. It's a way of saying "you done good."
I wish I didn't have to make such comments to people in this country. We should all be completely united and have no doubt that we are fighting a just and necessary war.
They should be, but...probably not. Most of them stopped paying attention sometime Tuesday afternoon or evening. They'll check back in, in a couple years.
It's the one line no sane state would cross...
Yeah, well,... you're right in a way; it is a line no sane state would cross....
What is about to happen shortly?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.