I'm sorry you feel that way.
I'll pray for you
Posted on 10/31/2006 6:44:53 AM PST by Types_with_Fist
JERSEYVILLE, Ill. - A teenager carrying a Bible and shouting “I want Jesus” was shot twice with a police stun gun and later died at a St. Louis hospital, authorities said.
In a statement obtained Tuesday by The Associated Press, police in Jerseyville, about 40 miles north of St. Louis, said 17-year-old Roger Holyfield would not acknowledge officers who approached him and he continued yelling, “I want Jesus.”
Police tried to calm the teen, but Holyfield became combative, according to the statement. Officers fired the stun gun at him after he ignored their warnings, then fired again when he continued struggling, police said.
Holyfield was flown to St. Louis’ Cardinal Glennon Hospital after the confrontation Saturday; he died there Sunday, police said.
An autopsy was planned for Tuesday.
The statement expressed sympathy to Holyfield’s family but said city and police officials would not discuss the matter further.
Calls Tuesday to Jerseyville Police Chief Brad Blackorby were not immediately returned. The department has been using stun guns for about five months, according to the statement.
In a report released in March, international human rights group Amnesty International said it had logged at least 156 deaths across the country in the previous five years related to police stun guns.
The rise in deaths accompanies a marked increase in the number of U.S. law enforcement agencies employing devices made by Taser International Inc. of Scottsdale, Ariz. About 1,000 of the nation’s 18,000 police agencies used Tasers in 2001; more than 7,000 departments had them last year, according to a government study.
Police had used Tasers more than 70,000 times as of last year, Congress’ Government Accountability Office said.
Amnesty International has urged police departments to suspend the use of Tasers pending more study. Taser International said the group’s count was flawed and falsely linked deaths to Taser use when there has been no such official conclusion.
The city of St. Louis also drew unwanted attention for crime this week when it was named the most dangerous U.S. city by Morgan Quitno Press. The ranking looked only at crime within St. Louis city limits, not its metro area.
Do you know who these two officers are? Do you know their education history? Their training background? Do you know what specific things they were taught in Academy? Do you know the curriculum they were taught regarding the use-of-force continuum or in Taser training? Have you discussed with them why they discharged their weapons? Have you asked them what they were thinking? Have you spoken to one person or looked at one piece of paper, aside from a news story, to determine what happened here?
If not, then you are just as ignorant as everyone else; owning land in the next county doesn't mean squat. And your impugning of these officers is as disgusting as Kerry's statement.
There is nothing in the article which suggests that these officers were ill educated, nor does it attempt to give a full and complete explanation for the events of in question. Indeed, the story and the headline are designed to sensationalize the story and push the buttons of Christian paranoiacs and knee-jerk anti-authoritarians, not to give anyone sufficient information to determine whether the use of force was justified.
5'7 and 130 pounds, carrying a bible and cordless phone. Yeah, hit him twice with the stun gun.... as the police approach HIM. Nope, no way the police were going to be "embarrased" by a little kid. We'll show him we have the control.
"SNIP UPDATE"
Holyfield, about 5 feet 7 inches tall and weighing 130 pounds, carried a Bible and a cordless house phone. He was described by a friend as a committed Baptist who never got into a scrap. But when police approached him, he struggled. They shot the teen twice with a Taser, according to the Jerseyville Police Department
Cause of death - excited or agitated delirium.
But some wonder if a diagnosis of excited delirium is just a way to cover up police brutality. Some doctors question whether the diagnosis is overused, and civil rights groups that oppose Taser guns say the condition doesn't exist at all.
In fact, the most commonly used psychiatric reference book doesn't even include a diagnosis called "excited delirium."
What were the lighting conditions? What were the circumstances of the the police approaching him? What actions did he take before the police approached him? What did he say? How was he acting? Was he holding the phone so that it appeared to be a weapon? Was he using it as a weapon? In what way, specifically, did he "struggle"? Did he assault an officer? Was he ordered to cease resistance? If so, did he fail to comply with that order? Was there probable cause to believe he committed a crime? Was he attempting to flee arrest?
The fact that he was a Baptist or was holding a Bible is irrelevant, at best. The fact that some people oppose the use of Tasers is also irrelevant. The only relevant question is whether the use of force was appropriate, regardless of the fact that this outcome occurred. And to make that determination, much more information is necessary than is present in this article, regardless of whether someone hates cops or has a Christian martyr complex.
And making judgments about the education and intelligence of these officers without that information is disgusting.
push the buttons of Christian paranoiacs..
Not even trying to hide your bigotry, huh? Did you learn that phrase in the academy?
"...Christian martyr complex."
He was bi-polar. Don't they teach how to deal with people with behavior disorders at the academy?
Nevermind.
"Of course I don't condone frivolous use of a taser, but I need more info on this case."
These are the talking points supporting deadly force. There is no more info to be garnered that will change the result, nor like in many other wrongful uses, have we later discovered justification. And like the many other wrongful deaths involving the taser, there is no excuse to be brought forward in this case that will justify the actions taken.
This kid was bi-polar with a behavior disorder. There is no excuse not now not ever for this use of excessive force resulting in the death of this teenager.
I look forward to you proving me wrong with more info. Others said the same thing in other cases.
No, the story has the appearance of a standard lame stream media report--devoid of facts and strong on hype--getting a bunch of people's panties in a knot because they hate cops or have a Christian martyr complex.
Look at this thread, it's a cavalcade of uninformed ignorance passing judgment on a couple of guys who put their lives on the line every day because they think that anyone who is a Christian is automatically free of suspicion and therefore these cops MUST be wrong.
Not even trying to hide your bigotry, huh?
Not even trying to hide your ignorance, huh?
The term "Christian" was used as a modifier of paranoiacs to describe which subsection of paranoiacs I was talking about. As in, the paranoiacs who happen to be Christian. If I said that all Christians are paranoiacs, that could be bigotry (if it were shown not to be true), but by phrasing it the way I did, I was not being bigoted, just precise. I didn't want to smear all the paranoiacs with the taint of that which is particular to the Christian paranoiacs.
Did you learn that phrase in the academy?
Who said I attended the academy? 'cause one doesn't have to be a cop to get pissed off when cops are attacked without basis.
Of course he was bi-polar; he was a Crazy, Shouting, Jesus Guy. I doubt that any of those guys are free of mental illness.
But more to the point, the fact that he was bi-polar is, at best, one small fact necessary to determine if the use of force here was appropriate. But if he acted in such a way to require the application of force in pursuit of a legitimate police objective, and the amount of force used was appropriate, then the fact he was bi-polar, without more, means nothing.
But it is proper to start to ask how and what these officers were taught and trained in dealing with people like this, along with all of the other questions (and more) I posted in previous posts. Because that will determine whether the use of force here was appropriate or not, not knee-jerk opposition to cops or Tasers or knee-jerk beatification of this guy because he was a Baptist or held a Bible. Making a judgment without all the facts is quite foolish.
This kid might have had biological issues (as has been reported in the articles you say are strong on hype). Ha, since when has the lamestream media been sympathetic to Judeo-christian religious types?
Instead of calling people who are troubled by what has been reported thus far, "cop haters" "paranoics" and people with "christian martyr complex" did you every stop to wonder like many of us are, why they needed TWO taser shots? Yeah, you can call me judgmental and ignorant, it still appears to me to be bully SISSY police work.
If your concern is with the efficacy of tasers, then the circumstances surrounding the arrest should be irrelevant. There is certainly no reason to attack these officers. Your concern should be addressed to the manufacturer or those in the police hierarchy and civilian oversight who have approved the use of the device. Instead, we get people like you calling them sissies in such a cowardly fashion. Disgusting.
...and the Bible is an important part of the story because he wasn't carrying a weapon and was probably acting like your average street preacher.
You have no clue how he was acting. You don't know what his movements were, whether he was aggressive and threatening or how the interaction with the police proceeded. You don't know whether he assaulted the officers, whether he threatened a civilian, whether there was probable cause for arrest, or whether he resisted arrest. You don't know the manner in which he struggled with the officers, whether he was on any drugs. For all you know he was beating people in the head with the damned Bible.
Don't know if you have ever lived in a large metropolitan area and come across one on the street. Some I have seen act mentally deranged.
I doubt if any of these Crazy Shouting Jesus Guys are free of mental illness. What they are doing is inherently nuts.
This kid might have had biological issues (as has been reported in the articles you say are strong on hype).
Which is not dispositive of whether the use of force was justified.
Ha, since when has the lamestream media been sympathetic to Judeo-christian religious types?
Yeah, modern Christians in the most religious nation in the Western World are all a bunch of St. Stephens. They're fighting modern day Neros who have the temerity to wish people a "Happy Holidays" and the gall to request that religious texts not adorn public courthouses.
Instead of calling people who are troubled by what has been reported thus far, "cop haters" "paranoics" and people with "christian martyr complex" did you every stop to wonder like many of us are, why they needed TWO taser shots?
I imagine because the first one was ineffective.
More to the point, these people you refer to have not expressed that they are "troubled"; they have judged these officers guilty as ignorant Christophobes, based solely on the fact the guy is dead, it was a taser that was used, that he had a bible and was shouting about Jesus before the encounter.
Look, if you don't want to be called "cop haters," "paranoiacs" and people with "Christian martyr complexes," then stop acting like that way.
Yeah, you can call me judgmental and ignorant, it still appears to me to be bully SISSY police work.
You are judgmental, ignorant, and a lot of other things besides...
I read the headline as the stun gun using the Bible to kill the teen....
That's your problem.
There is not enough details, so you pull stuff out of your butt? There is nothing in the article that even remotely supports any of your nonsense.
Don't bother. It's a waste of your time, and does nothing for me.
I imagine.....That's your problem.
Out of all of the issues raised in my (rather lengthy) post, all you care to comment on is the words, "I imagine"?? Interesting. Well, we can certainly see what your problem is.
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