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To: atlaw
Except, of course, for those that do. And amongst those who don't want a partition, their preference is elimination of their tribal enemies.

There is a unity government elected by the people and it does not want a partition. The Iraqi Constitution contains provisions for a federal state and local autonomy. Let's give the Iraqis the time to work out the modalities and not let a distinct minority drive the process.

Oh honestly. This kind of pie in the sky nonsense is precisely the kind of myopia that got us into Iraq in the first place -- without a clue about its tribal make-up. I'm sure you don't kid yourself into believing that with just the right "dialog" the Palestinians and Israelis will one day live in happyville, and there is nothing whatsoever to indicate any different future for the warring factions in Iraq.

The big difference is that Iraq has been a country since 1932 and has a national identity. And it is pure nonsense that we did not know about the tribal makeup of Iraq. The State Department, CIA, and DOD were/are fully aware of the history of Iraq, its demographics, and political system.

There is no "current Iraqi government," and indeed no functioning government whatsoever south of Kurdistan. There are a number of independent city states controlled and operated by independent militias, and a number of independent gangs ensconced within these city states. Ethnic cleansing is in full swing, with the number of internal refugees, mostly Sunnis, exploding over the past few months and now exceeding a quarter of a million.

Yes, there is an Iraqi government and it is functioning. You are buying much of the MSM crap that paints the entire country in chaos and upheaval. The militias need to be disbanded and eliminated. It will take time and treasure to do that. Here are some other perspectives on what is going on in Iraq.

Fact from Fiction: A Report from the Front

The number of attacks on Shiite mosques has increased every week, with 69 such attacks since February compared with 80 in the previous two and a half years. The Health Ministry is run by supporters of radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, with hospitals in Baghdad and Karbala systematically killing Sunni patients and then dumping their bodies in mass graves.

There is no doubt that sectarian violence has increased, aided and abetted by AQ. The fact that there is an increase in violence does not mean that we should give up and walk away. No one has ever said it would be easy.

The tribal hatreds are centuries old, and the practical reality is you're never going to get these folks to agree on any form of combined government.

Iraq has been a country since 1932. I just don't accept it as a given that Iraq cannot be governed by a democratically elected government under a constitution and a federal system. Iraqis seem to believe it is possible despite assassination attempts and actual assassinations of government officials. Over 8 million Iraqis voted three different times to approve the current government and its constitution.

Iraq was cobbled together geographically by the British without the least regard for pre-existing tribal identities, and remained unified soley by dint of a fiercely brutal military dictatorship. It is a "sovereign country" in the same way that the Sudan is a "sovereign country."

There are plenty of countries with a colonial history and articifically drawn borders. Indonesia is a good example. You can define "sovereign" anyway you want, but Iraq is a sovereign country with defined, recognized borders and a government. It is a member of international organizations including the UN. Sudan is also a sovereign country. You don't seem to understand the meaning of sovereign.

Who does. Which faction, militia, tribe, religious sect, gang, war lord, or corrupt politico are you suggesting that we "support."

The democratically elected government of Iraq.

have no idea how you got from containment of the eventual and inevitable theocratic sub-countries that will arise out of present-day Iraq to ostensible containment of Al Qaeda. Combating Al Qaeda does not necessitate our wandering aimlessly around a civil war battlefield with a bullseye on our back. Indeed, combating Al Qaeda will continue in a much more highly effective fashion if we shed the military waste and distraction of dodging bullets fired by folks who are by-God determined to kill each other.

AQ is in Iraq and based on captured documents, considers Iraq to be the central front in their struggle against us. These are the same people who killed nearly 3,000 Americans on 9/11 and carried out attacks in East African against our embassies and the USS Cole among others. They have also declared war against the US in 1996 in bin Laden's fatwah. If we walk away from Iraq, AQ will remain in Iraq and use it as a base to carry out its operations against us. We need to combat AQ in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere, including in the US.

AQ has also had the stated goal of fomenting sectarian violence In Iraq. It is not in their interest to have a united, democratic Iraq aligned with the US in the WOT.

98 posted on 10/31/2006 8:46:18 AM PST by kabar
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To: kabar
I think it's safe to say that we disagree. : )

If, as you suggest, the paper government of Iraq solidifies into a functioning entity at some point in the distant future, I'll view it as a welcome miracle. In the meantime, I view our protracted expenditure of blood and treasure on that faint hope as a perfect waste.

As for the Sudan, I offered it as an example of a "sovereign nation" splintering itself into bloody shards. Such is the nature of civil war.

99 posted on 10/31/2006 8:56:45 AM PST by atlaw
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