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To: ancient_geezer

....In short, the causal chain giving rise to increased
....surface and ocean temperatures is reversing.


You are assuming 100% of heating is the result of deviation in Solar Influx. Therefore the atmoispheric resisistance to transmission of IR is required to be a constant independent of trace gas concentration. QED it ain't.

Solar influx is only part of the equation for heating. Most recent data I have seen suggests it is responsible for about half of what we see to date.


48 posted on 10/26/2006 7:18:00 AM PDT by The_Repugnant_Conservative
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To: The_Repugnant_Conservative

You are assuming 100% of heating is the result of deviation in Solar Influx.

Wrong, I am going by the fact that cosmic ray influx, modulated by the solar magnetic field, is causing a variation in cloud cover and hence albedo of the earth reflecting solar energy away from the earth's surface.

 

Clouds have been observed from space since the beginning of the 1980's. By the mid 1990's, enough cloud data accumulated to provide empirical evidence for a solar/cloud-cover link. Without the satellite data, it hard or probably impossible to get statistically meaningful results because of the large systematic errors plaguing ground based observations. Using the satellite data, Henrik Svensmark of the Danish National Space Center in Copenhagen has shown that cloud cover varies in sync with the variable cosmic ray flux reaching the Earth. Over the relevant time scale, the largest variations arise from the 11-yr solar cycle, and indeed, this cloud cover seemed to follow the cycle and a half of cosmic ray flux modulation. Later, Henrik Svensmark and his colleague Nigel Marsh, have shown that the correlation is primarily with low altitude cloud cover. This can be seen in fig. 3.


Figure 3: The correlation between cosmic ray flux (orange) as measured in Neutron count monitors in low magnetic latitudes, and the low altitude cloud cover (blue) using ISCCP satellite data set, following Marsh & Svensmark, 2003.
The solar-activity – cosmic-ray-flux – cloud-cover correlation is quite apparent. It was in fact sought for by Henrik Svensmrk, based on theoretical considerations. However, by itself it cannot be used to prove the cosmic ray climate connection. The reason is that we cannot exclude the possibility that solar activity modulates the cosmic ray flux and independently climate, without any casual link between the latter two. There is however separate proof that a casual link exists between cosmic rays and climate, and independently that cosmic rays left a fingerprint in the observed cloud cover variations.

 

Solar influx in the form of radiant energy is the lesser factor providing heat, but the variation in cloud cover (albedo) causing a much larger effect in reflecting Solar radiation back into space before ever heating the surface to excite CO2 in the first place.

Therefore the atmoispheric resisistance to transmission of IR is required to be a constant independent of trace gas concentration.

Hmmm, it is not I assuming anything.

The direct radiant effects of IR are negligible in comparison to Solar Activity, and thermal retention characteristics o CO2 increase in proportion to the exponential increase of carbon dioxide, (i.e. atmosphere only increases ~0.2oK for each doubling of atmospheric concentration).

I would point out the models you are basing your assumptions on are flawed in assuming a feedback that has never been demonstrable by physical measures of the atmosphere;

"the direct radiative effects of doubled CO2 can cause a maximum surface warming [at the equator] of about 0.2 K, and hence roughly 90% of the 2.0-2.5 K surface warming obtained by the GCM is caused by atmospheric feedback processes described above."
--- "Increased Atmospheric CO2: Zonal and Seasonal Estimates of the Effect on the Radiation Energy Balance and Surface Temperature" (V. Ramanathan and M. S. Lian), J. Geophys. Res., Vol. 84, p. 4949, 1979.

Where not even the sign of such hypothesized feedback has not been determined and in fact may not exist to increase or decrease thermal variations of any factor much less that of CO2.

In short, no or negative feedback and CO2 is a negligible factor in variation, while variation of atmospheric due to cloud variation is a very real and demonstable phenomena.

 

QED, Your apriori assumptions on which your thesis of global warming due to increasing atmospheric CO2 concentration is based, has no demonstrable existance.

 

CO2-Temperature Correlations

[ see also: Indermuhle et al. (2000), Monnin et al. (2001), Yokoyama et al. (2000), Clark and Mix (2000) ]

[see: Petit et al. (1999), Staufer et al. (1998), Cheddadi et al., (1998), Raymo et al., 1998, Pagani et al. (1999), Pearson and Palmer (1999), Pearson and Palmer, (2000) ]

 

Global warming and global dioxide emission and concentration:
a Granger causality analysis

http://isi-eh.usc.es/trabajos/122_41_fullpaper.pdf

  •  "We find, in opposition to previous studies, that there is no evidence of Granger causality from global carbon dioxide emission to global surface temperature. Further, we could not find robust empirical evidence for the causal nexus from global carbon dioxide concentration to global surface temperature."

49 posted on 10/26/2006 8:33:15 AM PDT by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it.)
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To: The_Repugnant_Conservative

Most recent data I have seen suggests it is responsible for about half of what we see to date.

The only "data" you have seen is out of date as well as from flawed computer models, not from any emperical measures of any greenhouse effects of variation in atmospheric CO2. Such have never been shown to be a causative or even have a long term correlation except as a lagging effect of atmospheric temperature variations due to other causative factors such as Solar Activity, variations in Earth's orbit, variations in albedo due to external factor unrelated to dioxide emissions.

50 posted on 10/26/2006 8:42:56 AM PDT by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it.)
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To: The_Repugnant_Conservative
It might do you some good to actually read an uptodate emperical studies regarding the relative effects of Solar Activity and dioxide concentrations instead of pontificating about the relative hypothetical effects presumed by flawed computer models.

 

New Research Adds Twist to Global Warming Debate
October 12, 2006
By Steven Milloy

In the experiment, cosmic radiation was passed through a large reaction chamber containing a mixture of lower atmospheric gases at realistic concentrations that was exposed to ultraviolet radiation from lamps that mimic the action of the sun’s rays. Instruments traced the chemical action of the penetrating cosmic rays in the reaction chamber.[Click here for more details about Svensmark’s hypothesis and experiment, including high-quality animation].

The data collected indicate that the electrons released by the cosmic rays acted as catalysts to accelerate the formation of stable clusters of sulfuric acid and water molecules – the building blocks for clouds.

“Many climate scientists have considered the linkages from cosmic rays to clouds as unproven,” said Friis-Christensen who is the director of the Danish National Space Centre. “Some said there was no conceivable way in which cosmic rays could influence cloud cover. [This] experiment now shows they do so, and should help to put the cosmic ray connection firmly onto the agenda of international climate research,” he added.

But given the potential significance of Svensmark’s experimentally validated hypothesis, it merits more than just a place on the agenda of international climate research – it should be at the very top of that agenda.

Low-level clouds cover more than a quarter of the Earth’s surface and exert a strong cooling effect. Observational data indicate that low-cloud cover can vary as much as 2 percent in 5 years which, in turn, varies the heating at the Earth’s surface by as much as 1.2 watts per square meter during that same period.

That figure can be compared with about 1.4 watts per square meter estimated by the [United Nations’] Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change for the greenhouse effect of all the increase in carbon dioxide in the air since the Industrial Revolution,” says Svensmark.


51 posted on 10/26/2006 9:07:39 AM PDT by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it.)
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