First, I never said that anyone died. I said that people are held responsible for the consequences of their crimes, regardless of their intentions (try to keep up, huh?). Second, you don't know that nobody died as a result of Skillings' intentional crimes. If even one elderly person suffered a stroke or other stress related trauma as a result of Skillings intentional crimes, and the effect that it had on their remaining, vulnerable years, then he is culpable in their injuries.
However, only fools invested all their money in Enron.
Probably so, but as I said before, if an elderly person invested only 20% of their money in Enron, and that 20% was intentionally stolen from them, it can still have severe consequences to them, especially if it represents years of savings, and they are not in a position to go out and replace it.
401(k)s are not fixed investment vehicles. Let's deal in facts.
Okay, 20% of the assets that they have available to them for retirement. Better?
I lost money to Skilling's malfeasance, but I don't consider myself a victim. I made a bad equity bet, that's all. Lesson learned.
While I understand that your whole frame of reference is based on me me me me me, this isn't about whether you consider yourself a victim. It's about whether the thousands of retirees who where lied to and cheated consider themselves victims. Let's see, if someone lies to me and cheats me, do I consider myself a victim? Well, gosh darn, I think I'd have to put that one down as a "yes" (as did the Justice Department).
Allow me to enlighten your deep, deep cluelessness. I'll explain it to you step by step.
Allow me to return the favor. I know what a 401K is, and I know how they work. You seem to be laboring under the delusion that every elderly person who purchased Enron stock did so through an employer matched 401K plan, or that they were employees of Enron, or that you are the only one who paid full price for their stock. When I said "Dude, what the hell are you talking about? Do you even know", I was specifically responding to your statement: "got half their shares for free and the other half at a discount to the market price". Try to keep up, huh?
Bizarre comment.
No, the term you are groping for is "sarcastic". Sorry it went over your head, I'll try to keep things dumbed down for you.
I'm sure we all know teenagers who accept setbacks with stoicism and aplomb and I'm sure we all know seniors who whine like kids when they don't get a freebie or a discount
Again, you seem to think that it's all about you. It's a lot easier to have "stoicism and aplomb" when you are 18 and at the beginning of your life than it is when you are 65 and in poor health. Maybe you can explain to me what not getting a freebie or a discount has to do with being lied to and stolen from (it should be an amusing read).
They had every opportunity to prevent anyone stealing from them by diversifying their portfolio.
Like, say, only putting 20% of their money into Enron? The 20% that was stolen from them?
Again, I'm not sure why I'm supposed to feel sorry for someone who figuratively put a box of money in the middle of a busy intersection and then walked away from it for 20 years and returned to find their box of money gone.
A colorful example, but I don't really see what that has to do with being lied to. If you are following the stats on a company, and the stats are an intentional lie, how is that like walking away from it for 20 years. Is that how you lost money, not paying attention? Or was it maybe that you were lied to? And where did this "20 years" stuff come from?
Again, Skilling and Lay didn't "intentionally" devastate anyone.......The collapse of Enron stock was completely unintentional on their part.
Ya, that's why they were found guilty and one of them is going to jail. (That's sacrasm again, I didn't want you to miss it.)
I wrote that? Really?
No, I believe the specific term you used was "scapegoat" (post #184, second to last line).
No, I'm talking to people who were handed an enormous windfall for free and then blamed other people because they did not cash their chips in when they could have, but kept spinning the roulette wheel instead.
They probably assumed that it was an honest game, and didn't know that the roulette wheel was rigged.
You're full of advice for someone who is discussing a case, the details of which you are almost entirely ignorant. Not only have you no notion of what a 401(k) is and how it works, but you have no knowledge of what Skilling, Lay and Fastow actually did at Enron, and you have no idea who the "victims" of Enron were.
First, I don't seem to remember giving you or anyone else any advice. I'm giving an opinion (if you're unsure of the difference, check the dictionary). Second, the only ignorance I see here is your "knowledge" of me. Third, I do know what a 401k is and how they work, having had several of them (surprise, you're not the only person in the world who has one or has had one). Fourth, all your pretty talk about how Skilling, Lay, and Fastow were just trying to "keep Enron stock high and those pension plans fat" plays as well with me as it did with the Justice Department. As you probably noticed, they didn't buy your malarkey either. Fifth, as far as me not having any idea who the "victims" of Enron were, I guess I'll just have to fall back on my previous question: "Dude, what the hell are you talking about?".
No, your argument is that it is less immoral to murder an innocent person than it is to steal from several stupid people.
It's a bad argument.
if an elderly person invested only 20% of their money in Enron
That's still a preposterous overallocation.
if an elderly person invested only 20% of their money in Enron
You're the one who raised the question of whether I was a victim or not. I don't really care.
You seem to be laboring under the delusion that every elderly person who purchased Enron stock did so through an employer matched 401K plan
Those are the ones who seem to be complaining.
Sorry it went over your head
I understood the point you were laboring to make - you just went about it bizarrely.
how is that like walking away from it for 20 years
In the 15 years preceding Enron's collapse various research analysts pointed out significant discrepancies in Enron's financial filings and the company's business practices were examined by regulators on more than one occasion. Quite famously, on a conference call that was reported in all the papers more than a year before teh collapse, Skilling engaged in a demented, profanity-laced tirade when he was unable to answer a direct and pointed question by an analyst.
If one fifth of my net worth were invested in a single company, I would probably follow the news regarding that company with great interest, looking for warning signals like investigations, adverse research, financial discrepancies and public meltdowns by key company officers.
Maybe you can explain to me what not getting a freebie or a discount has to do with being lied to and stolen from
A person who is angry when a stock they own trades to an economically unjustifiable price and then trades back down is a person who is angry over losing a freebie.
If a stock you own trades up to a price that seems unjustifiable, you sell it.
The market gave you a gift in a temporary burst of irrationality. If you fail to cash it in, you have only yourself to blame.
Like, say, only putting 20% of their money into Enron?
No, diversification is not putting one-fifth of your resources into a single growth stock. That would be a glaring textbook example of how not to diversify.
Is that how you lost money, not paying attention?
I don't know if this question is addressed to me personally or is a general question. I'll answer it generally - there are warning signals and people do lose money by not paying attention.
Ya, that's why they were found guilty and one of them is going to jail.
They were not found guilty of intentionally bankrupting Enron. Probably because, as I said, that was never their intent. They were found guilty of concealing and fabricating information in an attempt to preserve Enron's share price.
Again, if you actually understood the Enron saga, you wouldn't have made so many mistakes of fact on this thread.