And if the victim has a weak heart, and suffers a stroke or heart attack as a result of the trauma of the theft, what does that do to all of your $100 vs. $100,000 arguments? You're playing "blame the victim" games, I'm talking about the results of the muggers actions. If a victim dies during a crime, the criminal is sentenced according to the results of his actions. It's not about his "intentions", and not about whether the victim should or should not have been carrying $100,000 with him, or should or should not have been walking down the street at midnight. In any case, it's not for you or the CEOs to decide what the victims should or should not have done.
They are no different from any other investor in the company. I didn't invest my entire life savings in Enron. If they chose to do so, that was their own foolish decision.
Ya, "blame the victim", version two (yawn). Those foolish retiree/investors probably thought that the company was being run by a competent and honest CEO, and not by crooks who were deliberately lying and stealing from them. I guess that was pretty foolish of them.
Had they invested responsibly, they would have been like me - a couple of grand out of pocket on Enron stock. Not back at square one.
Ya, blame the victim, version three (yawn). Who says they have to be back a square one? For a 65 or 70 year old, losing even 20% of a fixed retirement income can be devastating, particularly when it was stolen from them!
In fact, I have more reason to complain since I paid for all my Enron shares at market prices,
Oh, so you're the real victim here. I see.
while they got half their shares for free and the other half at a discount to the market price.
Dude, what the hell are you talking about? Do you even know?
But I won't see a red cent and I chalk it up to experience. You know, the way a grown-up does.
Ya ya, I know, you have a real big penis. Spare me the yardstick games and your particular little definition of what a "grown-up" is. Tell the 65 and 70 year olds about how you are so much more "grown-up" than they are.
What "devastation" is that exactly? Losing a job? Plenty of people lose jobs every day.
The "devastation" of loosing a large chuck of your retirement nest-egg, at age 65, because some crooked multi-millionair CEO wanted to add another few million to his own purse by lying and cheating and stealing. Maybe some elderly people can't just pick right up and get another job to make up for the years of saving that were stolen from them. Or maybe that part just didn't figure into your cavalier reckoning.
Intelligent people don't put all their eggs in one basket. If you deliberately make yourself a sitting duck, you are the one who ruined your life.
Blame the victim, version four (yawn).
..not some scapegoat.
Oh, so now the CEOs are scapegoats? I guess that means that they are the real victims here, huh (along with you)? If your statements were not so callous and pathetic, they would be laughable.
Honestly, have a little pride and self-respect.
Again, dude, what the hell are you talking about? I didn't loose a dime on Enron, so you are not talking to me. I'm talking about the massive devastation that was knowingly and intentionally caused to thousands of innocent people by a group of corrupt and greedy millionaires. All I've heard from you so far is "blame the victim", "suck it up", "get another job", "they should have known better", and "oh, those poor CEOs". "Pride and self-respect"? Maybe you should look those words up in the dictionary before you recommend that someone else get something that you don't seem to either have or understand.
Uh-huh. Of course, no one died as a result of Skilling putting together a bunch of dodgy partnership structures.
Those foolish retiree/investors probably thought that the company was being run by a competent and honest CEO, and not by crooks who were deliberately lying and stealing from them.
That wasn't foolish at all. Many people made the same incorrect assumption about Enron.
However, only fools invested all their money in Enron.
If I research a company and am convinced that they are well-run and will be very profitable, I still don't run out and put all my life savings in that one company.
That would be foolish indeed.
For a 65 or 70 year old, losing even 20% of a fixed retirement income can be devastating, particularly when it was stolen from them!
401(k)s are not fixed investment vehicles. Let's deal in facts.
Oh, so you're the real victim here. I see.
I lost money to Skilling's malfeasance, but I don't consider myself a victim. I made a bad equity bet, that's all. Lesson learned.
Dude, what the hell are you talking about? Do you even know?
Allow me to enlighten your deep, deep cluelessness. I'll explain it to you step by step.
A 401(k) is not, as you implied above, a fixed annuity. It is a tax-deferred investment vehicle that one can use to invest in fixed annuities if one desires, or in variable securities like shares of stock in a public company.
Employees can elect to invest a certain percentage of their pre-tax earnings into a number of investment options provided by their company or their company's plan administrator.
One of those options is usually the company's stock and that stock is usually offered at a discount.
Employers can, and generally do, choose to match their employees' contributions to the 401(k) with an equal amount of funds.
Companies can choose, and usually do choose, to pay that matching contribution in the form of the company's shares.
As a matter of historical fact, Enron employees had the option of spending their own contribution on discounted shares of Enron and Enron matched their contributions with free shsres of Enron stock.
So the Enron retirees who are complaining had a portfolio of Enron stock consisting of shares in Enron which they purchased at a discount to market value and an equal amount of shares of Enron which they received as free matching contributions.
Ya ya, I know, you have a real big penis. Spare me the yardstick games and your particular little definition of what a "grown-up" is. Tell the 65 and 70 year olds about how you are so much more "grown-up" than they are.
Bizarre comment.
I'm sure we all know teenagers who accept setbacks with stoicism and aplomb and I'm sure we all know seniors who whine like kids when they don't get a freebie or a discount.
There are many 70 year olds who are not remotely grown up.
Maybe some elderly people can't just pick right up and get another job to make up for the years of saving that were stolen from them.
They had every opportunity to prevent anyone stealing from them by diversifying their portfolio. Again, I'm not sure why I'm supposed to feel sorry for someone who figuratively put a box of money in the middle of a busy intersection and then walked away from it for 20 years and returned to find their box of money gone.
The person who stole the box of money clearly did an immoral, criminal thing.
But their act of leaving the money unattended in the intersection removes all sympathy.
They chose to "devastate" themselves.
I am currently saving money for my daughters' college educations. I have placed these funds in a diverse portfolio.
If I chose instead to put all that money in MSFT stock for 20 years and it turned out that MSFT was a huge fraud and I still sat there leaving those shares untouched as MSFT stock plunged to zero, that would mean that I was a fool who threw money away and deprived my kids of a college education I had planned to give them.
At any point along the curve I could have reallocated, I could have done the responsible, intelligent thing. But I neglected every opportunity that came my way until it all blew up in my face.
I'm talking about the massive devastation that was knowingly and intentionally caused to thousands of innocent people by a group of corrupt and greedy millionaires.
Again, Skilling and Lay didn't "intentionally" devastate anyone. Their intention was to keep Enron stock high and those pension plans fat - they had the bulk of their fortunes invested in Enron stock just like the employees. The collapse of Enron stock was completely unintentional on their part.
and "oh, those poor CEOs"
I wrote that? Really?
so you are not talking to me
No, I'm talking to people who were handed an enormous windfall for free and then blamed other people because they did not cash their chips in when they could have, but kept spinning the roulette wheel instead.
Maybe you should look those words up in the dictionary
You're full of advice for someone who is discussing a case, the details of which you are almost entirely ignorant.
Not only have you no notion of what a 401(k) is and how it works, but you have no knowledge of what Skilling, Lay and Fastow actually did at Enron, and you have no idea who the "victims" of Enron were.