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To: SJackson

I don't make a habit of letting the views of radical nutcases define reality for me.

The borders of the United States are accepted by every government in the world, including that of Mexico.

The situation in Israel is different. While most countries recognized the 1967 border of Israel as the line where Israel was sovereign, some countries didn't even acknowledge the existence of the country at all.

When Israel captured all of the west bank and the Sinai, it didn't annex them. Clearly that land was something that could only be termed "occupied territory", even by the Israelis.

There is no analogy to that in the situation with the wackjobs in Aztlan.


80 posted on 10/12/2006 12:37:07 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: Dog Gone

"Clearly that land was something that could only be termed "occupied territory", even by the Israelis. "

Wrong

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp470.htm


82 posted on 10/12/2006 12:43:03 PM PDT by Sabramerican (Bush Doctrine- Old: Fight terrorists. New: Cease fire with terrorists.)
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To: Dog Gone
From PalestineFacts.org:





Are the West Bank and Gaza "occupied territories" as Palestinain Arabs assert?

As a result of the Six Day War, Israel gained all of Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, Sinai, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank (historically known as Judea and Samaria). Palestinian Arabs often insist on using the term "occupied territories" to describe these areas, usually connected to the assertion that they fall under the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention. Yet, Palestinian spokesmen also speak about Israeli military action in Area A as an invasion, an infringement on Palestinian sovereignty. The use of both forms of terminology is a contradiction. If Israel "invaded Palestinian territories" in the present, then they cannot be regarded as "occupied"; however, if the territories are defined as "occupied," Israel cannot be "invading" them.

Israeli legal experts traditionally resisted efforts to define the West Bank and Gaza Strip as "occupied" or falling under the main international treaties dealing with military occupation. Former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Meir Shamgar wrote in the 1970s that there is no de jure applicability of the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention regarding occupied territories to the case of the West Bank and Gaza Strip since the Convention:

In fact, prior to 1967, Jordan had occupied the West Bank and Egypt had occupied the Gaza Strip; their presence in those territories was the result of their illegal invasion in 1948. Jordan's 1950 annexation of the West Bank was recognized only by Great Britain and Pakistan and rejected by the vast majority of the international community, including the Arab states.

International jurists generally draw a distinction between situations of "aggressive conquest" and territorial disputes that arise after a war of self-defense. Former US State Department Legal Advisor Stephen Schwebel, who later headed the International Court of Justice in the Hague, wrote in 1970 regarding Israel's case:

Israel only entered the West Bank in 1967 after repeated Jordanian artillery fire and ground movements across the previous armistice lines; additionally, Iraqi forces crossed Jordanian territory and were poised to enter the West Bank. Under such circumstances, even the United Nations rejected Soviet efforts to have Israel branded as the aggressor in the Six-Day War.

Regardless of how many times the Palestinian Arabs claim otherwise, Israel cannot be characterized as a "foreign occupier" with respect to the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Fundamental sources of international legality decide the question in Israel's favor. The last international legal allocation of territory that includes what is today the West Bank and Gaza Strip occurred with the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine which recognized Jewish national rights in the whole of the Mandated territory, including the sector east of the Jordan River, almost 80% of the original Mandated territory, that was given to Palestinian Arabs and Emir Abdullah to create the country of Trans-Jordan (later renamed Jordan). Moreover, the rights under the Mandate were preserved under the United Nations as well, according to Article 80 of the UN Charter, after the termination of the League of Nations in 1946.

It is important to observe that, from the time these territories were conquered by Jordan, Syria and Egypt in 1948 to the time they were gained by Israel in 1967, the territories were not refered to as "occupied" by the international community. Furthermore, the people living in those territories before 1967 were not called "Palestinians" as they are today; they were called Jordanians and Egyptians. (In fact, before Israel was founded Jews and Arabs alike who lived in the region were called Palestinians. The newspaper was the "Palestine Bulletin" and later the "Palestine Post" before becoming today's "Jerusalem Post", the Jewish-founded electric company was "Palestine Electric" and so on.) There was no call for "liberation" or "national rights" for the Arabs living there and no Palestinian nation was discussed.

No UN resolution requires Israel to withdraw unilaterally from the territories, nor do they forbid Israelis from going there to live. In particular, the often-misquoted UN Security Council Resolution 242 (and related Resolution 338) make no such demand or requirement. The demand that Israel stop creating "illegal settlements" is similarly baseless.

Under the Oslo Accords, the "peace process" started in 1991 at the Madrid Conference, Israel agreed to withdraw from the disputed territories and Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority (PA) was given control over land chosen so that more than ninety-nine percent of the Palestinian population lived under the jurisdiction of the PA. But the committment to Israel's security that was the backbone of the Oslo agreements was never honored by the PA and Israel was forced to periodically re-enter the ceded territory to quell terrorism. In 2000, Yasser Arafat rejected sweeping concessions by Israel at Camp David -- promoted by US Pres. Clinton in an attempt to reach a final peace agreement -- and the Palestinian Arabs turned again to violence with the Al Aqsa Intifada. That is, after the PA was governing nearly all Palestinian Arabs and a generous peace offer with international backing was on the table, the only response Israel got was increased violence. This is the sole reason Isreal continues to have a military presence in the disputed territories.

Sources and additional reading on this topic:


90 posted on 10/12/2006 1:11:27 PM PDT by familyop ("G-d is on our side because he hates the Yanks." --St. Tuco, in the "Good, the Bad, and the Ugly")
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To: Dog Gone
The situation in Israel is different. While most countries recognized the 1967 border of Israel as the line where Israel was sovereign, some countries didn't even acknowledge the existence of the country at all...When Israel captured all of the west bank and the Sinai, it didn't annex them. Clearly that land was something that could only be termed "occupied territory", even by the Israelis...There is no analogy to that in the situation with the wackjobs in Aztlan.

When the whackjobs in the palestinian authority speak about the occupation or the occupied territory, they're not talking about the West Bank, rather Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza. Retreat to the 1967/1949 line, that doesn't end the occupation. That's just a wacky as Aztlan claiming the southwest as occupied territory. The difference is that the palestinians have developed a critical mass of supporters who nominally support their agenda, including our Secretary of State.

BTW La Raza has been promoting the concept of a defacto reconquista by establishing themselves and their supporters as a voting majority, not through violence. That's not a far fetched idea at all.

97 posted on 10/12/2006 1:32:02 PM PDT by SJackson (The Pilgrims—Doing the jobs Native Americans wouldn't do!)
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