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To: Coyoteman

"It isn't the "non-believers" who have trouble seeing the evidence. It is believers."

Well, a believer is someone who already believes, or has faith, in evolution. The non-belivers are the ones who need to be converted to evolution.

Why convert the already converted? It don't make no sense.

I agree with some of the points you make, but evolution is not a hard science as, say, mathematics or physics is. Hence, the reason why many people don't believe in it until there is solid, unshakable evidence that proves what it purpots to claim.

Btw, I don't believe the earth to be 6,000 years old. I believe it to be much older but have doubts to the estimated 4.5 billion years. But that's understandable. Could be 3 billion years or 2.5.

Anyway, my objection to evolution's claims is that it is not a precise science, far from it. Also -- and this is the primary reason why I must presently discard it -- it goes against a God or a creator, or the mystery of life, if you will. Moreover I believe that supporters and believers in evolution are very zelous about it, which tells me that they must have an agenda. I reason that this agenda is one that goes against the survival of Western Culture and Christianity. Were they not so zealous and anti-Christians, I may allow allow myself to be coaxed into their camp and "see the light." Until then, any theory that attempts to destroy my culture and people, I will fight them, even if there is solidity to it and not mere wind.

And that's where I stand.


140 posted on 10/07/2006 3:57:25 PM PDT by stultorum (dont hire illegal aliens)
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To: stultorum
Your response only confirms what I posted in #135, above. You reject the theory of evolution because it goes against your religious belief, not because of any merit or lack or merit of the theory itself.


Well, a believer is someone who already believes, or has faith, in evolution. The non-belivers are the ones who need to be converted to evolution.

One particular point on your comment here; scientists do not "believe" in their theories, but rather accept those theories as long as the evidence supports them. If evidence is found to contradict a theory, it is either discarded or modified to fit both the new evidence and the old.

This definition of "theory" from my list of definitions may help you understand this point (from a google search, with additions from this thread):

Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses." Addendum: "Theories do not grow up to be laws. Theories explain laws." (Courtesy of VadeRetro.)

Theory: A scientifically testable general principle or body of principles offered to explain observed phenomena. In scientific usage, a theory is distinct from a hypothesis (or conjecture) that is proposed to explain previously observed phenomena. For a hypothesis to rise to the level of theory, it must predict the existence of new phenomena that are subsequently observed. A theory can be overturned if new phenomena are observed that directly contradict the theory. [Source]

When a scientific theory has a long history of being supported by verifiable evidence, it is appropriate to speak about "acceptance" of (not "belief" in) the theory; or we can say that we have "confidence" (not "faith") in the theory. It is the dependence on verifiable data and the capability of testing that distinguish scientific theories from matters of faith.


153 posted on 10/07/2006 6:31:20 PM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: stultorum
Moreover I believe that supporters and believers in evolution are very zealous about it, which tells me that they must have an agenda. I reason that this agenda is one that goes against the survival of Western Culture and Christianity. Were they not so zealous and anti-Christians, I may allow allow myself to be coaxed into their camp and "see the light." Until then, any theory that attempts to destroy my culture and people, I will fight them, even if there is solidity to it and not mere wind.

Supporters of ID are very zealous about their beliefs. Do they have an agenda? You reason incorrectly about creationists having the goal of destroying your religion or your culture. You can be a Christian and believe in evolution. It does not have to shake your faith in God. I have been on many digs and come across fossils. The stuff is real. I have dealt with evos who believe in God and those who spit on him. I have also run across Christians who were saintly and those who will one day burn in hell no matter what they say. People who call themselves Christians and exploit those who believe them. Don't lump evos into a category of demons or Christ bashers. A lot of them are just like you.

160 posted on 10/07/2006 7:14:52 PM PDT by satchmodog9 (Most people stand on the tracks and never even hear the train coming)
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To: stultorum
Anyway, my objection to evolution's claims is that it is not a precise science, far from it. Also -- and this is the primary reason why I must presently discard it -- it goes against a God or a creator, or the mystery of life, if you will.

No, it doesn't.

193 posted on 10/07/2006 10:29:04 PM PDT by stands2reason (The map is not the territory - A. Korzybski)
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