Prophet not perfect, says Islamic scholar

The Australian ^ | 4th October 2006 | Richard Kerbaj

[Asclepius]

Actually he was the perfect Jew because he fulfilled the Jewish scriptures.

Dude. I am a Jew. And I have read my "scriptures," or at least most of them (e.g. not the whole Talmud), but this is only because we have a whole lot more scriptue than you do. So I can say with authority that he never fulfileld the "Jewish" scriptures if by that you mean the Torah, Mishna, Talmud, and commentaries, combined with the prophets, histories, and wisdom literature.

Of course I have no idea what you mean by "fulfill" Perhaps he "fulfilled" some oddball gentile reading of certain lines or fragments of the Jewish scriptures, and perhaps a lot of Jews followed him at the time, although the Gospel narratives suggest it was mostly "tax collectors," "prostitutes," and peasant folk like the people who fished the lakes and rivers. The learned people of the time, the "scribes and Pharisees" who receive such bad press in the gospels, but who are the founders of rabbinical Judaism, thought Jesus was a curiosity at best. Whenever they tried to engage Jesus, hoping for his take on the Holy writ (by what authority do you do these things, they would ask), he could only ever talk about his experience (Look at the cool things I'm doing, healing, exorcizing demons etc., only there were lots of people at the time doing those things; miracle workers were everywhere, as the gospels and epistles themselves attest! Were not Pharoah's servants able t turn their staffs into snakes too?. Miracles can never trump the Torah, dude. The Talmud teaches as much.). Jesus would address their questions with reference to the real authority of the Jewish people, the Torah as revealed through Moses, which is sort of odd behaviour for a Jewish messiah, don't you think?

But whether peasant or outcast Jews followed the Rabbi Jesus proves nothing.

I know several Jews who are Buddhists, and several others who are athiests. Jews are always going astray and coming back. It's part of being Jewish. Read the "Jewish scriptures" if you don't believe me. It's full of stories of Jews going astray, coming back, going astray, coming back. We've followed lots of messiahs dude. Yours was one of the more successful cross-over artists, but what does that prove?

[Kirkwood]

"Dude. I am a Jew. "

Yes, of course I know that. You appear to not be very knowledgeable about Christianity and religion in general. I tried to state it succinctly so you would understand that to Christians, Jesus is the Messiah and therefore must be perfect.

Haven't you ever been curious why Christians hold onto the Old Testament of the Jews? It is because one can study the Bible and see that Jesus fulfilled all of the Messiah prophecies made by the Jews. As a Jew, you still await a Messiah. Do you believe the Messiah will be perfect or imperfect? If you think the Messiah is imperfect or simply a mythological fairy tale, then why even bother believing and why continue to call yourself a Jew?

For those who already believe the Messiah has come, we naturally believe that Jesus was without sin and perfect in the sense of morality. That doesn't mean we think Jesus never caught a cold or had a toothache or hit his thumb with a hammer or didn't get angry or didn't have a bad day or didn't hurt someone's feelings. You probably are thinking of perfection only in a human sense, but I am talking about perfection in a spiritual sense.

[noodler]

This is a most important subject and more than we can call important.In first place we do not really know if you are a Jew and make these statements. You can be a disrupter which plays on faith and puts those of faith at odds. Then sit back and pick up the pieces. I want you to respond further before I waste own time.

[Asclepius]

Haven't you ever been curious why Christians hold onto the Old Testament of the Jews?

Muslims do too. And why not? The stories are compelling, the wisdom relevant, and the mitzvot still valid. But if documents are removed from their context--they are the story of the experience of a people, after all, a very particular people--they sort of lose their meaning.

It is because one can study the Bible and see that Jesus fulfilled all of the Messiah prophecies made by the Jews.

As I wrote above, we don't see it. You seem to pick and choose *which* so-called messianic prophecies confirm what you already believe. And you seem to misunderstand the whole nature of prophecy as it is understood by the Hebrews. Prophecy is not fortune telling or divination. Pagans and gentiles do that sort of thing. Not us. Prophecy speaks to the historical moment in the language that attempts to mediate between human understanding and divine decree, and that mediation takes the form of a richly figurative language. The prophets were marginal figures whose lives and literatures generally assumed the character of a simpler, desert Judaism, the Judaism of nomadic tribes, calling out to what they believed was a more corrupt, urban Judaism, the Judaism of the temple and its priests. During the exile and post-exile periods the prophetic schools turned to attempting to preserve the Jewish communities by offering comfort and calling for a return to Jewish practice.

As a Jew, you still await a Messiah.

Not anxiously, no. We believe the messiah will return only when we have perfected ourselves enough to merit his coming, so in a sense we're all participating in the work of the messiah. If you want him to come, you observe the mitzvot (not that you're under any obligation to do so: the law was given to the Jews).

Do you believe the Messiah will be perfect or imperfect?

That question does not even make sense to a Jew. There is one God, and he is perfect. The messiah will be a man, and therefore human, limited, imperfect, just as Abraham, Moses, and Elijah were. If you believe that your messiah is "perfect" then you believe in 2 gods, which is OK, of course, but you have to understand that you have departed the camp of the monotheists.

If you think the Messiah is imperfect or simply a mythological fairy tale, then why even bother believing and why continue to call yourself a Jew?

The messiah may be a person, or he or she may be a historical movement or a moment in time. Who knows? When you literalize what was never meant to be literalized you open yourself up to all sorts of error.

For those who already believe the Messiah has come,

Wasn't he sort of a disappointment? I mean, the world still seems to be sort of mess, doesn't it?

... we naturally believe that Jesus was without sin and perfect in the sense of morality.

Perfect in the sense of morality? But perfect in no other sense? That's an interesting distinction. Do your co-religionists share it or only members of your particular sect or denomination? There are lots of people who are morally perfect, hence, there must be lots of messiahs I suppose. Your faith sounds closer to Buddhism than my understanding of Christianity. I thought that you thought that Jesus was God or something. If all that you believe is that he was a morally upright sort of guy, then I suppose we have more in common than I thought.