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To: js1138

Simple defining evolution as 'any change in allele frequecy' makes it applicable to a population that is accumulating deleterious mutations.

That qualifies a 'any change in allele frequency'.

How you gonna get humans out of an accumulation of deleterious mutations?


998 posted on 09/16/2006 5:48:09 PM PDT by GourmetDan
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To: GourmetDan
"Simple defining evolution as 'any change in allele frequecy' makes it applicable to a population that is accumulating deleterious mutations.

The definition of a deleterious mutation is one that reduces the number of successful offspring. Hmm...reduces the number of offspring... Looks like it kind of takes care of itself, doesn't it?

"That qualifies a 'any change in allele frequency'.

Yah, it does. That is why changes such as loss of function are also considered evolution. However, an immediately deleterious mutation quickly removes itself from the population.

"How you gonna get humans out of an accumulation of deleterious mutations?

Simple. Deleterious mutations don't accumulate unless the mutation is only deleterious when homozygous. Or if the mutation does not become deleterious until a change of environment.

You know, you seem to be confused. On one hand you claim that Haldane's dilemma applies in all instances of allele fixation where large portions of the population are so poorly fit that they die off quickly, yet you believe that a deleterious mutation that will reduce fitness will somehow accumulate.

Let's try another experiment. Actually since you have such confidence in selection costs decimating a population perhaps you could do the calculations.

We have a group of 100 mice, half male and half female. Of those, 10 mice, 5 male and 5 female, have a beneficial mutation that increases their number of offspring by 20% and 10 mice, again 5 male and 5 female, have a deleterious mutation that reduces their number of offspring by 20%. The mice without either mutation have on average 10 babies. Just for the sake of simplicity the mutations are dominant, each pair of mice has one litter and then dies and all litters are born at the same time. We'll also assume random pairing.

To help you with calculating how many offspring will have either mutation I'll give you the Hardy-Weinberg formula.

p = the frequency of the dominant allele
q = the frequency of the recessive allele
p2+2pq+q2=1
p+q=1

How many generations before the deleterious mutation is removed from the population?

How many generations before the beneficial mutation fixes in the population?

What is the least number of members experienced by the population?

1,007 posted on 09/16/2006 8:51:37 PM PDT by b_sharp (Objectivity? Objectivity? We don't need no stinkin' objectivity.)
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To: GourmetDan
Simple defining evolution as 'any change in allele frequecy' makes it applicable to a population that is accumulating deleterious mutations.

The point is that evolution included both beneficial and neutral changes. There are lots of mutations and chromosome changes that are synonyms or which have no immediate noticable effect.

1,012 posted on 09/17/2006 6:57:19 AM PDT by js1138 (Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!")
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