Posted on 09/01/2006 2:25:31 PM PDT by Lukasz
Anti-semitism is sweeping across Europe, so don't be deceived by Berlin's holocaust memorial. It can be disassembled, or covered over in short order.
The Holocaust memorial is the expression how well Germany deals with its past. There´s hardly another nation on earth like Germany that has made up with its shameful parts of history and learned to respect other religions and ethnics.
Good luck.
Actually, if you are a victim of something - something really memorable, like the Holocaust is memorable, I would imagine that you have the best perspective and context for the event of anyone.
Qualifies as "expert" to me...
Whose perspective would you think would be more definitive - a Holocaust victim's or SS Reichsfuhrer Heinrich Himmler's?
''You are SOOooo knowledgeable! German mercenenaries were of course involved in those many wars, not because they, having no national identity other than Christianity, lusted to die in the new world for the English king ,or in Moscow for a Corscican dictator, but rather because they must have been, as only you can so brilliantly understand, bloodthisty , sub humans satisfied with a crust of bread and a roasted baby every once in a while.''
I think nkyc.. made a valid ( even if ironic - sarcastic) point here. Your comments seem to fall in this - the Germans are responsible for all evils on earth - category.
(YAWN!!).I have not the slightest problem to support the proper punishment of soldiers ( civilians) involved in atrocities, war crimes etc. Off course on an individual basis or do you want to reintroduce collective guilt 'Goebbels' style? He blamed the Jews and you now the Germans?
And yes, this has to be applied to ALL combatants.
Let's add a little clarity.
1.The history of the German people and the Germanic tribes before them has always a bit brutal, nicht war? They were pretty proud of it, as I remember. Didn't Caesar Augustus make a big deal about his German palace guards?
2.The First World War came about because of some nasty old alliances/entente cordiales, etc. but the Germans pretty well raised the bar when it came to investing in brutality. Much of the unhappiness after that war was finished was based on the overall record of the conduct of the German forces. Again, I would urge you to read a few books on the subject.
3. But the thing that really jolts the collective human conscience was the conduct of the German forces and the German people in the Second World War. I don't care how nifty the uniforms were, or how brutally chic the fighter planes were, the end result was massive, industrial-scale extermination - by an allegedly Christian people - of Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, Russian prisoners of war and pretty well anybody else they felt like. The very few Germans that stood against it - and it was VERY few - got murdered quickly and efficiently. That goes beyond a war crime - a war crime is the murder of American POWs at Malmedy - the industrial-scale murder of defenseless civilians herded into camps was the Nazi contribuion to human history.
Do not try to equate any other nation/civilization's conduct with that of the Germans during the Nazi era. They rewrote the book.
I think that the German nation of today is a whole different case and they are pretty much a beacon for civilization - but no memorials, no statues, no speeches, and nor FreeRepublic apologists will ever cover over the unparalleled hideousness of the Nazis and the things they did.
Expert on german history means first of all the readyness to look at a larger part of german history - not just at the 12 years of shame.
Remember - that was my point of entry - to claim that who only knows about WW2 doesn't know much about germany.
Then - as to acknowledge this - the discussion went on about the holocaust.
But if we have to discuss the only thing americas seem to find worth of discussing if it comes to germany (maybe because they where among those who turned that disaster into a very sucessful time afterwards) it's actually easy for me to find experts - I just ask my parents.
Certainly the guy speaking of victims of the red army on a memorial concert for the holocaust should never again be allowed to talk as a german representative (would have made me blush, too)
(Can't imagine who made him anything offical)
''This the part I enjoy the most about our FreeRepublic - responding to the nonsense that always seems to ooze out of the corners when certain subjects are discussed.''
Good to know, you are the one, who has the absolute correct point of view !! LOL
''1.The history of the German people and the Germanic tribes before them has always a bit brutal, nicht war''
What a broad statement! I recommend ,you fresh up your one-sided view by a new BBC documentary based on recent
excavations in France , South Germany and Britain. It came to the conclusion that the Romans destroyed and enslaved
well functioning Celtic/ Germanic societies e.g. the standings and rights of the women were much more advanced compared to 'Macho' Romain society. Caesar himself ('De Bello Gallico') ruthlessly slaughtered 200000 Helvitii who just happened to cross his path in search for new lands and used it as a pretense to conquer Gaul and later Britain.
Certainly the Germanic tribe had every right to stand their ground and defend their culture instead of being enslaved.
''2.The First World War came about because of some nasty old alliances/entente cordiales, etc. but the Germans pretty well raised the bar when it came to investing in brutality. Much of the unhappiness after that war was finished was based on the overall record of the conduct of the German forces''
You make some valid points here. But you shouldn't leave out the fact, that this 'entente cordial' was not exactly
an alliance of the 'knights with white shining armour' as some Anglos often like to portray themselves. We are dealing here with colonial empires(France, Britain - and didn't even USA have a colony called Philippine up to 1946 ?) who had not many scruples, when dealing with their colonies( just think about Britain's Kitchener in the Bure ware who set up the first concentration camp word wide and starved 27000 civilians to their death. Brutality and colonial master thinking was already there.
''3. But the thing that really jolts the collective human conscience was the conduct of the German forces and the German people in the Second World War. I don't care how nifty the uniforms were, or how brutally chic the fighter planes were, the end result was massive, industrial-scale extermination - by an allegedly Christian people - of Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, Russian prisoners of war and pretty well anybody else they felt like. The very few Germans that stood against it - and it was VERY few - got murdered quickly and efficiently. That goes beyond a war crime - a war crime is the murder of American POWs at Malmedy - the industrial-scale murder of defenseless civilians herded into camps was the Nazi contribuion to human history. ''
That has been discussed countless and been dealt with at Nuremberg trials and other. I personally had no problem if they would have brought to justice everybody who was personally involved in atrocities.
''Do not try to equate any other nation/civilization's conduct with that of the Germans during the Nazi era. They rewrote the book''
Frankly this is BS. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc. were all mass murders. I don't think that it makes a difference whoever has done it or wherever it has been done or who were the victims. Whoever was involved personally should be sentenced accordingly. BTW this applies to 'Bomber' Harris as well! He is responsible for the indiscriminate firebombing of defenseless( especially towards the end of the war) German cities and mass slaughtering of civilians ( basically burning them alive - talking about industrial-scale extermination - this was a first in history, too). But instead IIREC he got a war memorial from the Brits. Call this argument apologist or whatever you like. This will be remembered as well.
You miss the key point to this discussion; the cause for the mass murders under the Nazis wasn't just a few criminals and thugs - it was a culture that had already been visible in Germany but had been augmented and distilled during the full envelopment of the Nazi era. The result was a fully nationalized environment of brutality in which the German people openly and knowingly supported invasion, mass murder, and enslavement.
Bomber Harris didn't happen in a vacuum: the Germans had to begin things through the terror bombings of Guernica, Rotterdam, Coventry, and London. Germany's response to the aerial attacks was to rain V-1s and V-2s randomly on civilians in London, Antwerp, and Brussels.
It was much more than just the few that were tried at Nuremburg - it was a national culture that had to be changed.
What happened with the Soviets, the Chinese and Kampuchean Communists and others happened because of a primitive and brutal culture, not just a few war criminals. So it was too with Nazi Germany with the special shame that they were educated, "modern", and Christian.
Unless you face what the true extent and culpabilities for these atrocities meant and mean for Germany, these types of events can begin all over again.
You display a strange mixture of sweeping generalisations and explanations about different 'classes' of mass murderers that doesn't convince me at all. Nothing but the usual platitudes coming out of the Anglo-sphere.
The need for a bogeyman is obvious.
All of us of the subsequent generations (including today's Germans) owe them a debt that cannot be fully paid.
If you are one of those unreconstructed types that don't believe that the Nazis were as hideous as they were, no amount of studying the real history will do a thing for you.
If you did know and understand the true nature of those crimes you would be consumed with grief for the great human treasure that was irretrievably lost under their excesses.
Nobody right in his mind will deny this. But the Nazis were not the only mass murderers in history and similar horrible events went on even after the holocaust. And frankly , my generation of Germans ( born after the war ) has done, what could be done after WW II. Even Israel calls us a friend now. It's about time, some of you guys get off your high horses and acknowledge this as well.
''Posted by starfish923 to A Balrog of Morgoth; Republicain
On News/Activism 09/13/2006 6:35:11 AM PDT · 8 of 10
You are correct, Balrog of Morgoth, Germany IS "pro-active" when it comes to even symbols of Nazism. The neo-Nazis ARE illegal in Germany in every way, shape and form. Any demonstrations are dealt with severely. There is prison time for those young men.
But that little detail doesn't stop anti-Germany writers here in the U.S.A. from publishing lies about German politics.
It's even ILLEGAL to do the forefinger on upper lip, mocking the Hitler mustache. The "Sieg Heil" salute is illegal. Anything, everything connected inn any/every way to Hitler/3rd Reich/Nazis is illegal in Germany.
Germany has the Internet Nanny to block ALL neo-Nazi sites and everything, I mean, everything to do with them...
It's always so strange to me that the anti-German attitude still reigns supreme, while the equal lockstep partners of Germany, Italy and Japan -- and for two years, the U.S.S.R., that would be Russia -- all get a pass for THEIR parts in WWII.
Heck, Stalin killed more Jews than Hitler and Japan killed 34 million Chinese and started THEIR war six years earlier than Hitler. I guess those facts are irrelevant to the German-haters of this country.
It was FINE to mock, ridicule and demean everything German with Hogan's Heros but can you IMAGINE the screech of outrage if there had been a T.V. series Hirohito's Heros mocking, ridicule and demeaning everything Japanese? Double standards STILL prevail about Germany.
Probably always will. Oh well. ''
Some extracts from another thread from one of your compatriots. Rather interesting , isn't it?
What you're missing is that Germany was one of the few nations in the whole collection that was above it all: Germany was a center of culture, historic span, learning, and art. Germany was a modern, western, and christian nation that nonetheless descended into a unique barbarism.
There is a photograph on the wall in the Yad Vashem memorial in Jerusalem that shows a Wermacht soldier intently aiming his Mauser 98K rifle at the back of a young, pretty Jewish mother who is sheltering her young child with her body. It is the instant before the 8mm bullet will shatter the lives of both of them, yet she is smiling and kissing her child. I was struck by the similarity of the soldier and the young mother - they were both the same age, they both wanted to live, and they almost certainly could've had a warm conversation in a saner world. Instead, a young mother and her very young child were destroyed along with countless others in a conscious madness that defies description.
Germany can't avoid what happened. Germany can't pin it on only some selected Nazi leaders. Germany can't avoid the shame by pointing at other monsters.
Germany's only salvation is facing the truth, living with the truth, and then becoming a protector of future generations.
I have been in Dachau , years ago. What a horrible place. I can still recall this eerie feeling that I had walking this ground.
IMHO civilization is only a thin layer. Given the right 'ingredients` and some maniacs who want to set up an authoritarian Utopian society, another brutal regime could come up again. Spreading fear with bogeymen, using scapegoats and a brainwashed 'fundamentalist' youth will do the rest. Only a small part of the population is needed. Mankind is not out of the doldrums and will probably never be. It could happen everywhere. But I m reasonable confident this won't be Germany!
''Germany can't avoid what happened. Germany can't pin it on only some selected Nazi leaders. Germany can't avoid the shame by pointing at other monsters. Germany's only salvation is facing the truth, living with the truth, and then becoming a protector of future generations ''
I strongly believe in the principle of individual guilt. It`s the pillar of all modern states. Your very own society is built around it. We have come a long way from the 'vendetta dark ages' societies to the modern secular world (well most western inspired societies anyway). I wonder sometimes how people like you obviously try to live without this principle!
Luckily there are other compatriots of you, who disagree :
''Since the very youngest Germans who were of legal age during the Nazi era are now in their 80's there are very few of these possible perps left. As for descendants, holding them responsible would be to hold them attainted, and bills of attainder are properly unconstitutional. The concept of racial guilt is an abomination which has been a source of genocide through history.
18 posted on 09/14/2006 3:47:56 PM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla ''
This principle applies to all of us; after all, we Americans turned away the jewish refugees, many of whom were returned to their deaths.
Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
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