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To: hosepipe; Alamo-Girl; marron; .30Carbine; Kitty Mittens; T'wit; Quix
Dreams seem to be a spiritual thing....

Hey ’pipe! I came across something truly lovely in my reading recently that I just wanted to share with you. It has some bearing on the donkey/rider conundrum, as you’ll see. It’s from Eric Voegelin’s “Notes on T. S. Eliot’s Four Quartets,” a magnificent poem that Voegelin designates as “the spiritual biography of a [great] Christian poet.” [I added the “great” part. :^)] Here goes:

* * * * * * *

The LORD who created must wish us to create
And employ our creation again in His service
Which is already His service in creating.
[Chorus IX from “The Rock,” the first cycle of the Four Quartets]

God has not created the world once and for all and left it to shift for itself.

The creation is a continuous process; and the creativeness of man enables him to participate in his humble way in God’s creation — as the instrument through which God creates order out of formlessness, and as the creature that offers in service to God the products of the gifts it has received from God. To be God’s creature is a power and an obligation, for

The soul of Man must quicken to creation.
[Chorus IX from “The Rock”]

Out of the formless stone spring new forms when the soul of the artist is joined to the stone,

Out of the sea of sound the life of music,
Out of the slimy mud of words, out of the sleet
And hail of verbal imprecisions,
Approximate thoughts and feelings, words that
Have taken the place of thoughts and feelings,
There spring the perfect order of speech, and the beauty of
incantation.
[Ibid.]

These powers have to be brought to the service of the Lord — “the powers for life, for dignity, grace, and order, and intellectual pleasures of the senses.”

For man is joined spirit and body,
And therefore must serve as spirit and body.
Visible and invisible, two worlds meet in Man;
Visible and invisible must meet in His Temple;
You must not deny the body.

Man is the meeting place of spirit and body, of the invisible and the visible. In his creations, when the soul is joined to matter, a form appears that figurates the invisible spirit. It is God Who has moved us “to building, to finding, to forming at the ends of our fingers and the beams of our eyes” [Chorus X from “The Rock.”]. The creation of Man, bodily, visibly, in the light, builds the temple and dresses the alter and lifts the light:

The visible reminder of Invisible Light.
[Chorus IX from “The Rock”]

* * * * * * *

Later, in “Little Gidding,” Eliot has this to say:

To apprehend
The point of intersection of the timeless
With time, is an occupation for the saint —
No occupation either, but something given
And taken, in a lifetime’s death in love,
Ardour and selflessness and self-surrender.
[II.5]

Yet as Voeglin says, “But for most of us”

there is only the unattended
Moment, the moment in and out of time.
[II.5]

Perhaps the function of dreams is, as you suggest, to remind us of that aspect of our being that is out-of-time. If one is having a dream, and notices that one is (paradoxically) in a full waking state all the same, it is probably not a dream, but a vision.…

Beyond that, don’t disparage that donkey of yours!!! If we were to extend that sort of reasoning, perchance we’d have to (logically) apply it to the Body of our Lord — who not only did not disparage physical incarnation, but sanctified it. (Gnostics seem to have forgotten this part.) Post-resurrection, that Body is the Christian Church itself, the Body of Christ.

In the love and peace of Christ, my dearest brother in Him!

163 posted on 04/03/2007 5:04:59 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein.)
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To: MHGinTN; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; marron
I meant to ping you to my post at #163 of this thread. Let me correct my lapse here, and add an addendum.

#163 is about Eric Voeglin's take on T. S. Eliot's Four Quartets, a poem (or integrated cycle or collection of poems) that I so admire.

The addendum is from Voegelin also. He said: "The Spirit of the Lord blows where it will; let us hope that it blows at the right time and in the right direction."

Christians must keep the faith and the hope alive, or I don't know who else will these days. Please join me in prayer that that may be the case....

164 posted on 04/03/2007 5:39:59 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein.)
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To: betty boop
The creation is a continuous process; and the creativeness of man enables him to participate in his humble way in God’s creation — as the instrument through which God creates order out of formlessness, and as the creature that offers in service to God the products of the gifts it has received from God. To be God’s creature is a power and an obligation,

Sing it, sister!

166 posted on 04/03/2007 5:43:57 PM PDT by marron
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To: betty boop
[... (Gnostic's seem to have forgotten this part.) Post-resurrection, that Body is the Christian Church itself, the Body of Christ. ..]

Gnostics(of all types/shades) seem to fall into fatalism and "spiritual magic"..
Which defeats the creative urges of the Body of Christ guided by the HEAD..
The Body of Christ is spiritual but metaphorically physical..
Indeed a Mysterium a human brain cannot grasp, currently..
Else why? the verse 1Cor 2;9 (and related verses)..

How dreams/visions relate to all this can/could be pivotal..
For how do you tell someone they are more than they see in a mirror?..
Much more.. Observing your self is where "Observation" starts..
Seeing whom you are clearly affects everything else you observe..

168 posted on 04/03/2007 6:14:31 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: betty boop; hosepipe; Alamo-Girl; marron; .30Carbine; Kitty Mittens; T'wit; Quix
What a highly interesting conversation that I have no interest in derailing in any fashion but, I must ask a favor of you all.

I have frequently been having a dream for over 50 years now and would consider it a great favor if you all would tell me what your think it means if anything.

I dream of a place, ALWAYS the EXACT same place. I have never seen in this place in life but if I ever do I will know it like the back of my hand! No conversation at all take place in the dream. It is always daylight there and I am simply doing chores around a log house built high up on a forested hillside above a beautiful lake in the valley below. No one else ever appears in the dream but there is always smoke coming out the chimney and the "feeling" I get is that others are there but not currently visible.

Does it mean something or is it nothing at all?

169 posted on 04/03/2007 6:17:31 PM PDT by Bigun (IRS sucks @getridof it.com)
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To: betty boop
What a magnificent, inspiring post, dearest sister in Christ!

Perhaps the function of dreams is, as you suggest, to remind us of that aspect of our being that is out-of-time.

Indeed, perhaps that is so.

175 posted on 04/03/2007 9:48:35 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop
I'm always saying 'Wow!' when I read your posts, dear betty boop, but today's is the summit of all my wonder - the Creator of All is speaking directly to my needy heart with every word you've shared. The post itself is the manifestation of the wisdom it speaks of - that is the gift of God, to live exactly what we speak, and make known by our complete knowing, amen.

Awesome, holy, wondrous God!

Thank You!

Humble, obedient servant and FRiend!

Thank you!

I'm at least bookmarking this, and certainly printing it out for much reflection, encouragement, and mentoring. Probably only in heaven will you and I know the full fruit of your work here.

Truly, truly He works all things together for good unto and through His Called, Chosen, and Appointed who love Him!

178 posted on 04/04/2007 3:07:18 AM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: betty boop
I came across something truly lovely

Me too, praise God.

179 posted on 04/04/2007 3:10:05 AM PDT by .30Carbine
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