Growers say fruit's ready, but workers are scarce

Seattle Times ^ | 8-30-06 | Joe Mullin

[SWAMPSNIPER]

"We have a shortage of laborers though".

---

No, we have a shortage of people hungry enough to work.
They can do 2 things if word gets out that next months check ain't coming. They can throw a hissy fit and try to burn the cities, or they can look for a job. One way or another, a problem gets solved.

[SJackson]

Oops. Deal breaker. You can't ask people to come up here for a two week harvest and not move on to another job.

Not just a deal breaker, untrue. H2A workers can switch employers.

[pollyannaish]

Listen, this didn't happen overnight.

There was a time when I was young, that much of this work was done by ex-cons, disabled folk, etc. In fact, I remember a schizophrenic guy and his wife who came through our town every year. They lived in migrant housing and slept on bare mattresses. They were most certainly were not illegal to this country.

My mother and I, through the outreach program at our church, would bake bread and other staples for the migrant community. We would invite the little kids to Vacation Bible School so they would have supervision. We would bring them blankets and used clothes. It was essentially a community support system. IIRC, my father would even help repair things on occasion...cars, buildings, that sort of thing. I was pretty young, so its a bit murky. I still remember the smells though.

In addition to these types of workers, children as young as 12 would work as well, some local and some who were children of the migrants. Entire families sometimes worked, including my grandmothers family.

Somewhere in the late sixties, early seventies (think The Great Society) these kind of people started disappearing. Many of them went on disability or welfare, or where moved into other government caretaker projects. It was perceived as cruel that we were allowing these poor disadvantaged people to work and we needed to take care of them.

About the same time, more and more Mexican migrants began to fill the void. Many of these folks are legal, but first generation immigrants (which Pat Buchanan and a lot of folks around here also oppose) who would travel from place to place until they gained the English skills to settle in and move up the economic ladder.

As I have stated previously, I know one family with six children who lived in a two room shack near the highway on the bus route. A blanket covered the doorway the entire year, and they had no electricity. Today, that family has six college educated children and grandchildren that don't speak Spanish at all. In addition, they own several large houses and live a professional, middle class life. There are many, many stories just like this one in our town. They have completely assimilated within a couple of generations.

As the original migrant types filtered into social programs, and as more and more restrictive laws where passed regarding child labor (You must be 16 or older with restricted hours) more and more work began to open up for anyone who wanted it. Mostly, there are published routes of farming communities (that hasn't changed and it's always been that way) and approximate dates when harvest due. Some families, groups of men and others travel together from place to place. Often, these days, families are settled in one location while the men and over-16 boys follow the harvest.

Now, in my town most white families, and, increasingly, second and third generation Hispanic families have moved into service-based and professional jobs—teachers, health care professionals, bankers, small business owners, etc.

There has definitely been upward mobility. What this has taught me is twofold, one is that supply tends to meet demand no matter what, and that liberal hearts may be in a good place, but they have a tendency to really muck up the works and never change things for the better. The road to hell really is paved with good intentions. This is not the workers fault, it's the do-gooders fault.

Finally, as far as documentation goes, most of those in agriculture that I know do NOT hire illegals knowingly. In fact, several growers here have started entire communities which include schools and churches in an effort to keep good workers invested and coming back year after year. They check documentation and run some background checks. BUT if documentation seems fishy, most of the time people are scared to death to question it because the government does a pretty skunky job of backing them up and instead they get opened up for discrimination lawsuits by hotshot lawyers.

That said, we recently routed out a major document forger in our area. So, things ARE happening. It's just that you don't hear the good stuff...only the stuff that will keep the base away from the polls so the Dems can regain control and we won't ever have to worry about this problem again.

/That's my story

[pollyannaish]

Ok...then on again. LOL.

I need to do some research on it. Is this what is often referred to the "guest worker program?"

[WatchingInAmazement]

I'm not an "economic-only" conservative -- far from it. That said, it's really dumb to ignore economics in this issue, since it is THE driving force behind illegal immigration. The relevant figure is that the growers receive only about 14-17% of the retail price.

You undermine your own argument. Yes, most of the cost of food is in the retail area, which proves there is NOT much cost in labor (It's in that 14-17% you noted)

And yes, ignoring economics, as you are, on this issue is REALLY DUMB.

What do you suppose the cost is for the infrastructure to accommodate up to 20 million people aka illegal aliens? New roads, schools, medical facilities, welfare/social services, houses, on and on.....

Now, for the cost of produce.

Without illegal aliens, the price of agricultural products and other goods and services will NOT soar. The definitive study on this subject is the University of Iowa's "How Much Is That Tomato?" The study concludes that 'since labor is such a small component of the end-price of agricultural products (which includes price to the growers, transportation costs, processing /storage costs, grocers' profit, etc.), using minimum wage workers instead of illegal aliens would increase prices of agricultural products by approximately 3 percent in the summer and 4 percent in the winter ... hardly the making of $10 heads of lettuce, $25 hamburgers, $1,000 per night Days Inn hotel rooms like the pro-illegal alien lobby claims.

http://www.theamericanresistance.com/articles/art2004jan04.html

_____

"If you look at strawberries, they're picked right into the little plastic containers," said Martin. "The farmers only get about 18 cents on the dollar for strawberries. If (the consumer) spends $1 on a pint of strawberries, the farmer's getting 18 cents. He gives about one-third of that to farmworkers, so they make 6 cents." So even if the labor cost were to double, that would still only be a 6 cent increase per pint.

Martin's estimate is that if the immigration influx -- currently a net of about 500,000 people per year -- were cut by 40 percent, the average American family would wind up spending about 2.5 percent more on fresh fruits and vegetables.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/05/21/MNGFQIVN991.DTL&type=politics Also: JOBS AMERICAN CITIZENS WON'T DO? According the the Pew Hispanic center, and data from 2005 census reports, the largest percentage of those jobs are done by US CITIZENS.

http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=61

About 7.2 million unauthorized migrants were employed in March 2005, accounting for about 4.9% of the civilian labor force. They made up a large share of all workers in a few more detailed occupational categories, including 24% of all workers employed in farming occupations, 17% in cleaning, 14% in construction and 12% in food preparation.

[panaxanax]

"It's funny isn't it? These guys are making really good money, and a lot of it is spent in our community."

Right you are! We had one family that showed up every year in 2 nice Ford Vans and newer Ford Pickup with an overhead slide-in camper. All three vehicles had CA plates and I might add that they were nicer and way newer than what I was driving.

This family consisted of all ages from a tiny baby to the old grandma & grandpa. All paychecks were made out to the old man who distributed it amongst his sons and their families as he saw fit. There were 9 "pickers" in the group and they averaged 80+ bins per day at $10.80 per. That's over $800.00 per day and they stayed until the last apple was picked. Few, if any bruised apples, never had any problems with them and they all attended the local Catholic Church on Sunday. Good people.

They followed the Cherries starting in OR and then finished the final harvest in Flathead Lake. From there they moved on to the apples in central upstate WA (Oroville) to finish out the season. Then they headed south down to the Gulf of Mexico where they owned (outright) 200 acres with separate houses for each family.

During the winter when my wife and I were pruning trees in 20 degree snowy windy weather they were taking tourists fishing on their charter boat, drinking cold beers on the beach and having fun.

And some of us call them "stupid lazy Mexicans"!??

If they (Mexicans) were all like these good folks we would be lucky to have as many as possible come in to pick our fruit. It's the gangs, rapists, drug dealers and thugs, not to mention the OTM's that spoil it for people like these.

[r9etb]

You undermine your own argument. Yes, most of the cost of food is in the retail area, which proves there is NOT much cost in labor (It's in that 14-17% you noted)

You're not responding to "my argument." You improperly stuck together two different comments, to two different people, made in two completely different contexts. I won't accuse you of outright dishonesty, but yours is not a particularly helpful approach.

Moreover, the statements are not contradictory. The former suggests that economics drive illegal immigration. The latter statistic -- which you clearly do not understand, as you misrepresented it completely -- provides some idea of how much the growers receive for their produce -- it's their gross income, not their net. Knowing the growers' returns is of course the first step in figuring out their profit margins. But of course there's more to it than that.

Because the economic question addresses the relationship between the growers and those they employ; and because thin profit margins play directly the growers' incentives to cut labor costs by hiring illegals, it's clearly not "ignoring economics," to address the topic directly.

Your failure to properly quote my posts, and your obvious failure to properly understand the statistics provided, is no doubt why you utterly failed to make a point that has anything to do with what I actually said.

Next time, please try harder to respond to my actual comments, instead of what you incorrectly believe them to be.

[r9etb]

Now, that is R...I...G...H...T

You, sir, have not displayed any knowledge of the current conditions in the topic of this article - orcharding in Washington. I have not only provided the anecdotal information relayed to me by Washington orchardists, I actually took the trouble to provide an explicit reference to the topic at hand.

You, OTOH, have provided 40-year old -- and therefore wholly obsolete -- anecdotes from your extensive box-lifting experience in California.

You did refer to your friend in the fruit business. So we've got competing "friend information." However, because he is not an orchardist, and he is not in Washington, "my friends" who are actually in the business are in a better position to provide good information than "your friend" is. Moreover, I suspect that your friend probably wouldn't agree with much of what you've said.

[WatchingInAmazement]

I won't accuse you of outright dishonesty, but yours is not a particularly helpful approach.

Oh, Okay, I see. You know I copied your EXACT words. You still don't respond to the subject but instead try to make me look like a liar. Change the subject, attack the messenger. We see your game.

And I will accuse you outright of dishonesty. And I promise I will never try to show you a fact again.

[grellis]

And you know that these jobs aren't availiable now to American teenagers how?

A lot of the kids I grew up with still live here in Michigan and we all keep in touch. Those with teens have told me the difficulties their kids are facing finding employment--the jobs that were once there for teens are simply gone. None of the orchards we worked as teens will hire kids any longer--those jobs are taken by migrants. The maid jobs (I wasn't the only one who went that route)--illegals. Hardly any restaurants will hire teens around here--not even fast food joints. Most of those jobs are now taken by adults who have been cut loose by the local GM closures. I'm not personally acquainted with the "precious progeny" to which you refer--I'm not denying they exist, but I live in a working class neighborhood and there aren't kids like that around here. The kids around here want to work because their parents don't hand them all that they desire on a silver platter. As for bashing people who do dirty jobs--like I said, friend, I tried finding work here as a maid or a "laundress" and that is filthy work. I am unemployable as a maid, even with my experience. English is my first language. That counts against me.

[Dane]

Dane, you sure get a lot of grief.

Hang in there

A lot of these people who incessantly post on these threads on FR, really truly believe they are doing good by sticking their nose into businesses and economics they are ignorant about, akin to the 60's liberal "do gooders" who have ruined industry after industry in America, the only difference is that most of their animus is against the actual workers who do good things such as grow and pick food because of their ethnicity, and not based on class.

[Dane]

A lot of the kids I grew up with still live here in Michigan and we all keep in touch. Those with teens have told me the difficulties their kids are facing finding employment--the jobs that were once there for teens are simply gone. None of the orchards we worked as teens will hire kids any longer--those jobs are taken by migrants. The maid jobs (I wasn't the only one who went that route)--illegals. Hardly any restaurants will hire teens around here--not even fast food joints

Do you think I was born yesterday? There are plenty of jobs for teenagers out there, especially in fast food.

[petitfour]

Actually, he would be one who traffics humans rather than drugs. And it is quite conservative if you think about it. Or it is quite Republican akin to the party of Lincoln rather than the party of slavery. Have you ever seen a truck load of illegal aliens in a sardine can in the 100 degree heat?

[Dane]

Actually, he would be one who traffics humans rather than drugs. And it is quite conservative if you think about it. Or it is quite Republican akin to the party of Lincoln rather than the party of slavery. Have you ever seen a truck load of illegal aliens in a sardine can in the 100 degree heat?

Get back to me when these people are actual property, they are not, they are free to go at anytime, and also no one puts a literal gun or cracks a whip for these people to take these jobs, so before you go pontificating about slavery, maybe you should actually learn some history.

[Texas Eagle]

He's had plenty of work, he says. But it seems there's no one willing to do it.

I got an idea Herr Heinz. Jack up your pay to something Americanos are willing to accept and pocket the subsidies when you file your income tax return next year.

[Texas Eagle]

Heinz Humann needs to meet Heinz Robott.

LOL!

[Stultis]

"But some guess that migrant workers may be attracted away by higher-paying jobs."

BINGO

I'm the first to admit that we can't go back to it now, but I think, if realistic and objective, you have to admit there was a certain advantage when we really did have effectively "open borders". As little as ten or fifteen years ago illegal workers could migrate across the border, in both directions, quite easily. Crossing the border took about 5 minutes, could be done on the outskirts (if not within) a metropolitan area, and cost almost nothing, except for the cab on the other side (which would be waiting for you since the crossing points were well establish, and as mentioned near or in the cities).

Now the typical illegal border crossing is a two day walk across desert, and for most you'll need a guide that will charge you. (A coyote that can smuggle you via motorized transport will cost several thousand.) And there's a MUCH better chance that you'll be caught. If you're not Mexican you might get deported all the way to your country of origin in Central America. Now you have to cross the Mexican border, and all of Mexico, and the American border too to get back.

Are you gonna take seasonal work, and cross the border two to four times a year? Back then you would. Now, once you get here, you're much more likely to STAY here. For that you need a year round job.

[rottndog]

LOL! Elitisit" Come on rotty tell us of your teenage work experience.

OK, $#ithead. I've been working for more than 26 of my 38 years on this earth, and I'll guarantee I've already worked more in those 26 years than you will in your whole life. You see, I like to work, and to me there is no such thing as a job I won't do (same is true for MOST Americans--Dane excluded).

One month before I turned 12 I started throwing newspapers. Not much work? How many 12 year olds do you know that wake up @ 4 AM on the weekends and holidays to spend 3 hours lugging newspapers all around the neighborhood? Hard work, but I liked it.

The day I was old enough to have a work permit-15 1/2-I applied for and got a job at McDonald's. You know what my very first duty was? (I remember my first day like it was yesterday) Mopping floors, scrubbing dishes, and swabbing toilets--and I was happy to do it for $3.35 an hour. But according to idiots like you, that's a job "Americans won't do".

Six months later I transferred to a new McD's across the street from Disneyland. You whined about working until 11:30--we didn't close until 2AM, when D-land closes during the tourist season. Talk about a rush--How about 200 screaming people in line at 2AM? Never got out before 3AM, and never whined either. Know what I did there? Everything from scrubbing floors (a job "Americans won't do") all the way up to managing the store. It was fun, good experience, and I liked it.

When I turned 18--off to the Navy. And you remember that old commercial about doing more before 9am than most people do all day--absolutely true. 12 hour workdays were short. 18 hour days were normal. Very tough and arduous, but again, I liked it.

So you see, TROLL, I was working before my teens and never stopped. And I don't plan on stopping until I drop dead. Because I like work (and I am not unusual), and I think that elitists like you, who think that it is OK to import a slave class of illegal immigrants to do the jobs "Americans won't do", are doing great deal of damage to young Americans who will never know the value and rewards of hard work, because ILLEGAL ALIENS are usurping all the entry level work that "Americans won't do".

[rottndog]

</rant>

[petitfour]

So you think it is all right for folks to be treated like dead fish because some farmers need someone else to pick their apples so they don't go bankrupt?