Politicians often change Party affiliation. Lieberman has formally filed for just such a change. He's not a Democratic Party Senator any longer, contrary to your tired old spin.
Posted on 08/25/2006 8:35:53 PM PDT by george76
Good Stuff!
This issue is not of of Jewishness or not, but instead one of viewpoint. Anti-Americanism has been rampant in America's intellectual circles for perhaps 60 years or more.. so the ship turns slowly.
There once was a time when you found Catholic priests supporting Atheist Communists in the name of justice and freedom (Liberation Theology).
When you attempt to talk about "the Jews" as a whole and distinct monolithic group you have crossed into difficult territory.
However, one has to understand, that an Atheist is an Atheist. Once God is removed from your life, then a different equation takes over. And alot alot of people in the US and around the world are Agnostic or Atheist when it really gets down to brass tacks. Especially intelligent educated people who write newspaper articles, teach in Universities, practice the law and run for political office. If you are an Athiest then it doesn't matter what your parents or grandparents believed. What matters is what Kant, Hegel, Spinoza, Nietzsche and Marx believed.
But, the world of modern Feminism which has become an unquestioned social norm has been the source of a myriad of follies that just begin with the Culture of Abortion and Death. The attempt to dispose of Motherhood and Fatherhood as archaic institutions which trap women into degradation and essential slavery has deep foundations. Yet, now it is a world where 20 year olds have sex freely when they are most attractive and find themselves without a mate or prospects when their biological clocks start ringing. Worse they have to competed with no-stings sex by the next generation of sweet things. Thats the breaks.
Google Margaret Sanger. She was a Catholic by birth. Why would a Catholic be the founder of the very movement that has caused the death of millions upon millions more than Hitler ever dreamed? Should I start asking why so many Catholics are willing to participate in the Culture of Death? How to you explain John Kerry or all of the Catholics that support him? You say thats not fair. No more unfair than the statements you made or the question you asked about why do some Jews support abortion.
So don't lay this problem at the feet of all Jewish people. Lay it where it belongs. At the feet of folks who do not love God and life. Some of those folks might have had Jewish parents, thats all the more a shame. Folks who don't love God have Catholic, Baptist, Muslim, Buddhist and Unitarian parents.
However, you must watch your own steps in this.. because your statements can be used for others to make generalizations that fuel hate and division. Religious and non-religious Jews fear the "Christian Right" because of all of the times that Christian revivals have preceeded horror. Many Jews fear that Christians will slide back into anti-semitism. Some believe that a purely secular United States is some form of protection. Other folks see such efforts as a folly. But, there are many folks who are happy to see the Jews as the source of all things they hate. This is an old old story.
And if you don't think that anti-semites aren't out there.. just look up Frank Weltner. Now Frank Weltner starts by claiming Karl Marx was a Jew. In fact, Marx was an Atheist and rabid anti-semite despite his Jewish heritage. Weltner uses this as the jump off point for the same crap Hitler was peddling all so many years ago. So as Lenin and then Stalin were busy killing off Jews in the USSR, Hitler was in Germany blaming the Jews for Lenin's and Stalin's evil, and using that to justify killing millions of Jews in Europe. Weltner adds a liberal dose of Islamofascist hate crap as well so you get the current world of anti-semitism in one piece from this guy. And so it goes. I wish this crazy was the only one.
There is so much evil in this world.
Right now, the religious Jewish community is more conservative than ever and trending that way, there is a significant chance that this community will swing all the more conservative as the liberal left has exposed its anti-semitism. Reach down into your heart and decide how you want this to come out and attempt to find the facts, and not fall prey to the lies.
See post #78.
Goodness knows I certainly wouldn't ever want anyone to use my question as an excuse to justify their own bigotries & foment hate against Jews, having dated more than a few(including the rabbi's son,lol!), having lived in a few Jewish neighborhoods in my life, and knowing firsthand how many families have huge gaping holes in their family trees thanks to antisemitic pogroms. I certainly didn't mean to imply that "Jews" as a whole promote abortion - I know quite a few rabidly pro-life temple-going Jews as a matter of fact.And certainly Nat Hentoff is the classic example of the secular Jew who is pro-life.
But, though it's very true as you say though many Catholics, & Agnostics & Lutherans & on & on have supported abortion & in fact are responsible for more of them than anybody else in this country probably, they haven't been singled out & targeted for thousands of years for annihilation as a people as Jews have. It would seem almost suicidal for any Jew, no matter what their political persuasion or sociological outlook to promote anything that in any way would erode a society's respect for life, and the truth of this matter is that - ask any conservative Jew about this - a very large proportion of secular Jews are very active in promoting the right to abortion in this country.
The very notion seems so self-defeating that I wonder if it's more dangerous (and perhaps in a way more antisemitic?) to ignore & not address at all rather than try to figure out where it comes from. After all, it's not like folks haven't noticed how crazy it is.
You may have a point, however, in that by even expecting every single Jew to be thoroughly repulsed by the very notion of abortion and the slippery slope of cavalier attitudes towards all life it might engender given their ancestors' history , I am in a roundabout way actually blaming the victim - expecting them to be different than everyone else & act in a more "moral" or special way. You may truly indeed have a point there, dalight.
Thanks so much again for taking the trouble to write.
Communism rejects religion though as fraud meant to blind people from the truth of their oppression. Communism is a "pseudo religion" that aims to substitute faith in the "people" for faith in God. In practice, the rotten core of nihilistic emptiness, substitutes all manner of base evils to fill the void of empty meaninglessness. Russia's Utopian society never occurred and never can. The amazing thing is that even after the fall of the Soviet Union, socialist and communists still exist and apparently have taken control of the American Democrat party.
Any thinking person has to wonder about advisability of creating Israel in the midst of the Middle east. This was not the way to create the illusion of peace. Folks who desperately want the illusion of peace have to think, gees this was a big mistake. Just like they wish desperately to turn back the clock and give Iraq back to Saddam. "He wasn't THAT evil!" Yea right. But, America has turned out to be the land of milk and honey for Jews. Many hate to see that messed up, and it seems like Israel is just the thing to do just that.
However, these folks live under the belief that at some point in time, we can find peace and understanding with Islam. This may be possible, but it would take a reinterpretation of the Koran that isn't on the table today.
Jews have already had this moment. After the fall of the 2nd Temple, in the midst of the Roman genocide, Judaism took a different direction. This is why there are Rabbi's and not Priests. Why rivers of blood no longer flow from a Temple where animals are ritually sacrificed. Why the word Zealot just doesn't seem to apply to Jews any more. Especially when you are describing a terrorist.
The Bible, the old testament, is full of horror and genocide commanded by God. Yet Jews pray every day for peace and healing for the world. This is because Rabbinic Judaism reached a deeper understanding. Some Jews believe that Islam can do this at some point as well.
Nevertheless, when you study history, you see that the creation of Israel looks alot more like a miracle than an act of colossal foolishness. And if you stop to think that all of those millions of Jews who died in the Holocaust purchased the Charter of Israel. It was the Soviet Union who intervened to save Israel in 1948, allowing the Czechs to sell tanks to the nascent Israeli Defense Force. My personal belief is that this is as much as anything an example of God intervening in the affairs of these times.
Now folks like to kick around Reform Jews around here, but the world is desperately praying for Reform Islam to save us and wondering where it is. It is part of the Jewish tradition to value debate and open discussion rather than insist on pure dogma. This is something that makes Torah study one of the most appealing intellectual exercises that one can experience. Reform Judiam brought Judiasm into the mainstream of American life. Its willingness to question, to reach out, to make mistakes is a strength for all Judiasm not a weakness. Still, politics is politics and many on the left are blinded by group think and just plain wishful thinking.
The treatment of Israel in the press because of Lebanon has opened alot of eyes that have thus far been held tight shut. The defeat of Lieberman has also caused many to step back and say woa..
I spent the first 40 years of my life being upset that God let the Holocaust occur. Thats a long time. 50 years of expecting the next persecution is along time too.
Jews are bit players in the current Drama. The main action has moved to the naked conflict between Western Culture and Islamofascism.
People want desperately for this not to rise to direct war between the West and all of Islam, for this means 1.5 Billion Muslim souls. What is to be done? 14 million Jews world wide do not rate worrying about in the grand scheme, except as we keep seeming to get into the middle of things.
Jews aren't the problem and are only peripheral to the solution. The problem is that Islam is not a religion of peace except that it seeks ultimate peace by converting every living soul to Islam by force if necessary. But, they are flexible about how to get that count of living souls to be all Muslim, for it is also acceptable to have alot less living souls if it creates the desired end. Solve that problem and you will either be a hero or the first to die.. can't tell you which.
Both secular and religious Jews were marched into the Nazi death camps. I don't think the Muzzies make any distinction either!
I fear alot of Jews like alot of Christians are going through the motions of faith, until the real thing comes along. I agree with you that Jews shouldn't do anything that erodes society's respect for life. But, being a Jew doesn't guarantee being wise.
I am very excited about these times though, because I see faith on the rise, not just Christian faith but Jewish faith and this is truly a good thing.
Judaism as a philosophical system, compared against the worlds religions stripped to its bare essentials is very appealing. For Judaism truly celebrates life, the joy and living of life. It celebrates the life of every Human, Jew or not. And, it even celebrates the lives of every creature that creeps and crawls. Its truly the worlds worst kept secret. If it weren't for the worrying about the downsides of being Jewish, many many more seekers would flock to it. Such is life.
But, as you say, its hard to believe that even a single religious Jew would not be deep in the pro-life camp. Give it time. Those who would kill their children have no future. Abortion demands a heavy price, for anyone who would be a party to it.
Excellant post. Thank you.
The basic Muslim goal is to create and maintain the Umma, the universal acceptance of Islam. This is different than the Nazi goal of the extermination of Jewish people. To be spared, Christians and Jews need only convert or submit and accept dhimmitude. See.. much nicer. :)
Politicians often change Party affiliation. Lieberman has formally filed for just such a change. He's not a Democratic Party Senator any longer, contrary to your tired old spin.
Post #78 gets it wrong, as it confused "Independent Democrat" with "independent (small i) Democrat."
Post #25, however, gets it right.
By the way, Senator Lieberman has actually filed paperwork in order to formalize his Party change. He's not running as a Democrat; his new Party is called "Connecticut For Lieberman."
He still is a Democrat and I will take great pleasure in sending you the results of a recorded vote in the Senate once it gets back in session. There ARE STILL 44 DEMOCRAT SENATORS IN THE 109th CONGRESS.
Nope. He's running as a member of the Party of "Connecticut For Lieberman," not as a Democrat.
If Lieberman is reelected, then he will be an independent and not a Dem, at least until six months later when he changes back to being a registered Dem.
You act as though politicians can't switch Parties while in Office.
Have you really forgotten Senator Jumpin' Jim Jeffords so quickly?!
Post 78 is written by Lieberman himself, so I think that's the one that matters. There is no meaningful sense in which he will not continue to be a liberal Democrat.
Unlike Jeffords, who went from one side of the aisle to the other in terms of the caucus, Lieberman is staying on the Dem side. He was elected as a Dem and wishes to remain so. As long as the Dem Senate leadership agrees to that, he will be carried on the Senate rolls as a Dem in the 109th Congress. Wait for the next recorded vote and you will understand what I am talking about. The 110th Congress is a different matter.
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