This scripture is speaking of the marriage relationship at home. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the general relationship between all males and all females. How do we know this? Simple. You quote 1Tim2:12. But you leave out he following 3 verses which correlate and complete the thought. I will type them for you:
For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1Tim2:13-15)
The word "for" in verse 13 connects and correlates these scriptures with the previous. The word "they" in verse 15 proves that the author is speaking of husband and wife and NOT the general relationship between all males and all females. Also, in verse 15 it speaks of the WIFE being saved trough childbearing which can only relate to the marriage relationship in the home. It is unethical to only quote vs 12 and leave these out. But its done all the time to prove the false doctrine of demanding women's silence in the church.
It is an insult to God to promote the theory that women must be silent in the church. IN 1Cor14:34, 35, the author is repeating a quote from the corinthians letter (similar to what I did in italics above). We know this from 1Cor 7:1. In 1Cor 14:36, the author rebukes the corinthians for even thinking such a thing. "what? came the Word of God out from you?"
The first person to preach Jesus as the Messiah was a woman (Luke2:36). And she never left the temple and taught everyone in Jerusalem that came to the temple looking for the Messiah.
It is astounding that these scriptures have been misquoted, misused, and misinterpreted to promote a false doctrine.
Here is the context if anyone is interested
Therefore, I desire that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In the same way also, I desire that women adorn themselves in decent clothing, with modesty and sensibleness, not adorned with braiding, or gold, or pearls, or costly clothing, but with good works, which becomes women professing godliness. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I do not allow a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. But she will be kept safe through childbearing, if they continue in faith and love and holiness with sensibleness.
(1Ti 2:8-15 MKJV)
"It is unethical to only quote vs 12 and leave these out. But its done all the time to prove the false doctrine of demanding women's silence in the church."
Who was demanding a womans "silence" in the church? I surely wasn't.
I was brought up in a Baptist church, but this wasn't something emphasized.
When I was 24 I left the church I grew up in and started going to a near by mega church, which had women elders, and eventually women pastors. I thought this was cool and modern, and a sign of enclusivity. And the man who was a spiritual mentor to the head pastor even wrote a book on the subject of women in leadership.
Though in my young mind, I thought that women in leadership was cool, and whose time had come, there was something stirring in my sole. While I read the book that the professor had written, though my heart was open and reseptive to it, my spirit became very uncomfortable with it, and I never finished the book, that I can remember.
Though I wanted to go along with the program, little by little, this one issue haunted me more and more.
By the way, I wasn't someone who just showed up once in a while, or on Sundays. I regularly attended weekend services, which were designed for "seekers", and mid week services, which were more meat and potatoes. I also served in one of the youth ministries for 13 years, going to camp 1-2 weeks in the summer, and numerous weekend retreats.
I mention this, NOT to toot my own horn. I'm only trying to point out, that I was heavily involved, as I take my faith (what I prefer to call my personal relationship with the only true and living God) very seriously.
Eventually, I left that church. The main reason was that I was feeling called away from the ministry that I absolutely loved. But I was feeling more and more uncomfortable with the issue of the roles of women in the church. As well as a few other subjects that I don't feel are pertinent to this discussion.
Now I would never encourage someone to make spiritual decisions based on their feelings. For me it was a matter of time (years actually) and a lot of prayer.
Now as far as Biblically speaking, lets look at the entire context of the passage. In 1 Timothy 1, Paul opens with a greeting and then why he was writting this letter 5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
6For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,...
Now when we get to chapter 2, Paul starts to get into detail of things, but he is talking to/about the church (congregation) as a whole.
Verse 8 is the first to specifically name one group to do something,
8Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, ifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.
Then verses 9-10 he swithes to women,
9Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments,
10but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
These verses are focused on all women, and not just wives.
Next come the verses we have been discussing.
After that Paul discusses why he says this. And chapter 2 ends shortly at verse 15.
Now in chapter 3 Paul talks about church leadership,
1(t is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?,
I emboldened the words man, husband, he, and wife to make a point. You pointed out in your response how Paul was talking about wives in the latter part of chapter 2. But I want to point out that Paul uses both man and husband, as well as women and wives. He was clearly stating to whom he was refering.
Throughout this passage Paul is charging men with leadership, and what is required of them. Women are never brought into the discussion
Until verse 11
11Women must likewise be dignified, (V)not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.
Paul seems to bring women in simply because he's putting very high standards to men, especially those who aspire to leadership, and to emphasize that even though women aren't involved in leadership, they themselves have certain qualities to aspire to.
To show continuity, the verses in chapter 2 would still fit perfectly here.
Now it may sound simple, but I don't want anything missed out. Chapter 1 is the only chapter in 1 Timothy that starts out introducing Paul, and announcing to who the letter is written. So it is obviously the start of the letter. When you get to 2 Timothy, once again, the introduction, and address. My point is that the entire book of 1 Timothy is ONE entire letter. So everything needs to be read together to see the entire context.
Also this letter is written to Timothy, a person, not like Corinthians or Ephesians, which were written to congregations. Read in its entirety your able to view that Paul is instructing Timothy on how to teach and lead those under him, Timothy. So When Paul says,
12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
You can see that Paul is instructing Timothy.
Now my last point is, that I've heard the argument that Paul was trying to conform to the society of the day. The problem is, first, where else does Paul EVER conform to society? I'm talking about conforming doctorine to society. Where in the entire Bible does the word of God conform to society? It doesn't. The Word is to transform the world not the other way.
I imagine Paul being about 5'-6" today, back then maybe 5'-0". But Paul was a spitfire. Here was a man preaching in the synagogue, dragged out and stoned, and left for dead, but didn't die. He gets back up, bloodied and battered, and goes back in, and says I'm not finished yet, and continues to preach the word of God.
Paul didn't shirk before Roman centurions, the army Rangers of the day.
In that light I don't see Paul conforming his message out of fear or respect of society. In fact, I see the exact opposite happening.
Now lastly (at last), whether we agree on this or not, at this point is really unimportant. We have both made our points, and I encourage you, that if you have other insights I might be interested in viewing, send them along. But as can be pretty frequent here on FR we need to be careful on how we do this.
3If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,
4he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions,
5and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.
1 Timothy 6:3-5
I think that it is obvious that we are brothers (or sister and brother) and rejoice in that.
This scripture is speaking of the marriage relationship at home. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the general relationship between all males and all females.
How do you get this conclusion. Look at the context of v.8 - this is clearly in the context of worship? Why would a woman be silent at home? Paul also addressed this issue directly in 1 Cor 14:34-35. The interpretation for 1 Tim 2:12 mentioned here is consistent with the teaching in 1 Cor 14.
IN 1Cor14:34, 35, the author is repeating a quote from the corinthians letter (similar to what I did in italics above).
This is your assumption.
It is astounding that these scriptures have been misquoted, misused, and misinterpreted to promote a false doctrine.
Dial it back a notch, will you. This is an inter-nicene debate.