Posted on 08/21/2006 10:15:55 AM PDT by hedgetrimmer
as long as you talk in generalities and use undefined terms you can reach any conclusion you want. Post 22, supra, also raises some very good questions you should try and answer (not evade, as you did mine).
Specifically, you have advanced an argument about "slave labor" the scope of which you now admit you have absolutely no ability to measure , yet the article you post, nonetheless, speculates extensively that slave labor goods are "flooding" NAFTA markets. This is utter nonesense.
Likewise the generality of religious persecution and "organ harvesting" based upon what may be happening to Falun Gong. What about the more than 44 million christian bibles that have been printed and circulated throughout china (55,000 churches/congregations) with complete approval of the PRC over the last 13 years?
The article you posted is nonesensical trash unsupported by facts and void of relevant analysis.
What kind of quality can you expect to be produced by slave laborers? Would you rather have a motivated and happy worker for just $3.00 a day or an unmotivated, unfocused and depressed worker for free? It doesn't make much sense to use the latter except for production requiring the lowest skills. More than half of all the exports from China are made by foreign owned companies.
The Chinese SOE's are a mess and I suspect that the ones using slave labor, thinking it provides them with a competitive edge, are learning the hard way that this is just not the case. Utilizing slave labor is not a long term solution for developing a competitive economy that can compete with the developed world.
less name calling, more precision, and you might have a chance of becoming persuasive in service of useful goals.
The charge that "slave labor" goods are "flooding" US markets is palpably false. All of your moralizing based upon overgeneralizations is unconvincing to any but your fellow kool aid drinkers.
Dealing with the PRC successfully in coming years will take skill, skepticsm and good judgment. Categorical delusions such as are offered in your posted article will gain nothing and lose many opportunities to improve the world.
What I don't understand about the protectionist argument is how we convince other countries...say, Germany...to buy American goods at prices significantly higher than they can get elsewhere. Other than having an advantage in innovation, productivity, etc., we can throw up all the barriers we want, and all it does is make us less competitive. The only way we become competitive is if we maintain an edge that justifies our extravagant wages.
If China is using slave labor and thereby playing unfairly, that's an issue that requires very strong intervention if we want it to cease--barriers don't do anything to stop them from selling to other markets, and even without slave labor, there's no reason for such high American wages relative to others unless we can justify them with superiority of product quality or quantity.
The natural progression would seem to be that wages around the world will equalize to a more moderate level--ours dropping to be competitive, other countries' rising as the workers can demand more (already seeing some of both). Seems that the only way to keep a superior wealth is to be the *owners* (who take advantage of whatever is the most competitive labor rate), rather than relying on a career for income.
But IANAE...so I welcome comments.
Definitely gets one thinking about where our goods come from. But it's difficult to find household goods/clothes/toys, etc. that aren't made overseas. Ultimately, I'm going to shop whereever I can get the best deals. It's not like my avoiding Walmart, Target, etc. will in any way influence their practices.
I think protectionists should buy from Wal-Mart and donate their savings to unemployed American workers or use it to form an organization to fight to overthrow the Chinese slave labor system.
Do you believe in Free Enterprise?
Do you believe in Freedom of Association?
Do you recognize the Sanctity of Contract between private parties?
Are you afraid to compete in a free market?
Need government to step in and protect you? Take care of you?
Afraid of a billion chinese that are eager to work and probably smarter than you?
Tsk tsk, hardly the spirit that Built America!
No, that's normally understood in these discussions but I keep forgetting that you are anything but normal and require being led around by the hand.
Thats the difference between us Americans and you globalist "free traders".
Your us Americans got about 0.005% of the vote the last time you ran a candidate who agreed with your twisted world view. That's quite a movement your leading there Che'. I'd also like to call your attention to the fact that throughout recent history those advocating for free(r) trade have fared dramatically better in elections than your protectionist brethren.
Instead you make their corrupt leaders billioinaires, strengthen their military and grant them Most Favored Nation status.
Are the Chinese people freer today than they were 30 years ago? 20 years ago? Are they better off than they were 30 years ago? How much longer can 60 million people dominate 1.2 billion people when it's the free(r) market driving this transition?
Time will tell but what I still don't understand is why you would rather these innocent people starve and live without hope. Why would you not allow them to take advantage of their poverty when that is all they have? You've never been able to show where trading with China has hurt our economy yet you want the government to immediately begin telling free people what they can buy and from whom. There's a lot of inconsistency in your warped ideology.
Slave labor is unproductive and will not succeed in the long term. You have no idea how much product is being produced by prison labor in China, what those products are and where they are being consumed. If you ever get some facts we can have a discussion on the subject.
A certain amount of manufacturing will always seek the lowest wages but most manufacturing is about labor cost per unit, which is why productivity is so important. American workers are the most productive in the world which is why we can compete with the cheap labor you're so fearful of. We manufacture and export more now than at any other time in our history.
giving away economic sectors in trade agreements so a few elites can secure Foreign Direct Investment in communist and totalitarian countries.
If we're giving away entire sectors of our economy, how is it that we still lead the world in just about every area of technology and remain the locomotive for the world economy?
how did China get the infrastructure in place to produce goods to sell to other countries?
That's right hedge, China has no FDI. It's all happened at the expense of the US taxpayer--all those plants owned by Taiwanese, Japanese, EU and Korean firms all came at the expense of the American taxpayer. LOL
Citizens are supposed to protect the rights of their fellows,let them live their lives as they see fit, and not call for individuals to 'sacrifice' to the global "free trade" agenda
Now that's funny. Your self-righteousness has reached a new zenith. You say this yet demand that the government intervene and tell free individuals what products they can buy and from whom. Sacrificing individual freedom to the "protectionist" agenda is patriotic and necessary. Unbelievable.
Real wages for all workers in this country have risen for more than a century. This has happened in the face of slave labor, cheap labor, outsourcing and free trade. The worst thing you can do to an economy is waste valuable worker capital on work that could be done elsewhere. The better and natural course is to move labor up to higher uses, and this is something we've always done, and is what is always done in growing economies. Economies that are stationary implode. Fortunately, your kind will continue to get less than 1% of the vote in this country so I can sleep at night.
How many have become "very very wealthy" due to prison labor compared to those operating legitimate businesses? Do you have any knowledge of this or are you just ranting as usual?
In most poor countries children work, either with their family or in other businesses, instead of going to school. It's what they have to do to survive. Is this "slave labor" to you? Should we not trade with any country that uses child labor even though we did as a developing country? I've seen you accuse low wage countries of enslaving their people. Would you not trade with a country that didn't pay it's people what you thought was a fair wage -- even though you've probably never even been out of your own country? Where do you draw the line hedge? You demand standards that are a luxury of affluence. If we had insisted on your standards for our own economy while we were becoming rich, we never would have gotten there. You've always been consistently hypocritical on this issue.
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