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Review of Godless -- (Centers on Evolution)
Powells Review a Day ^ | August 10, 2006 | Jerry Coyne

Posted on 08/17/2006 11:04:51 AM PDT by publius1

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To: Coyoteman

Posting dense, obtuse and voluminous torts is not an answer to any but judges with too much time on their hands.


41 posted on 08/17/2006 1:07:40 PM PDT by Louis Foxwell (Here come I, gravitas in tow.)
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To: js1138; PatrickHenry
Did someone say "formidable intellect"? We report, you decide:

Not a single expert witness over the course of the six week trial identified one major scientific association, society or organization that endorsed ID as science. What is more, defense experts concede that ID is not a theory as that term is defined by the NAS and admit that ID is at best "fringe science" which has achieved no acceptance in the scientific community. (21:37-38 (Behe); Fuller Dep. at 98-101, June 21, 2005; 28:47 (Fuller); Minnich Dep. at 89, May 26, 2005). P. 70

75 By defining irreducible complexity in the way that he has, Professor Behe attempts to exclude the phenomenon of exaptation by definitional fiat, ignoring as he does so abundant evidence which refutes his argument. Notably, the NAS has rejected Professor Behe's claim for irreducible complexity by using the following cogent reasoning:

[S]tructures and processes that are claimed to be 'irreducibly' complex typically are not on closer inspection. For example, it is incorrect to assume that a complex structure or biochemical process can function only if all its components are present and functioning as we see them today. Complex biochemical systems can be built up from simpler systems through natural selection. Thus, the 'history' of a protein can be traced through simpler organisms . . . The evolution of complex molecular systems can occur in several ways. Natural selection can bring together parts of a system for one function at one time and then, at a later time, recombine those parts with other systems of components to produce a system that has a different function. Genes can be duplicated, altered, and then amplified through natural selection. The complex biochemical cascade resulting in blood clotting has been explained in this fashion. P-192 at 22.

As irreducible complexity is only a negative argument against evolution, it is refutable and accordingly testable, unlike ID, by showing that there are intermediate structures with selectable functions that could have evolved into the allegedly irreducibly complex systems. (2:15-16 (Miller)). Importantly, however, the fact that the negative argument of irreducible complexity is testable does not make testable the argument for ID. (2:15 (Miller); 5:39 (Pennock)). Professor Behe has applied the concept of irreducible complexity to only a few select systems: (1) the bacterial flagellum; (2) the blood-clotting cascade; and (3) the immune system. Contrary to Professor Behe's assertions with respect to these few biochemical systems among the myriad existing in nature, however, Dr. Miller presented evidence, based upon peer-reviewed studies, that they are not in fact irreducibly complex.

Case 4:04-cv-02688-JEJ Document 342 Filed 12/20/2005 Page 76 of 139

And lastly we have the judge's observations of these real gems from Behe's testimony:

On cross-examination, Professor Behe admitted that: "There are no peer reviewed articles by anyone advocating for intelligent design supported by pertinent experiments or calculations which provide detailed rigorous accounts of how intelligent design of any biological system occurred"(22:22-23 (Behe)). Additionally, Professor Behe conceded that there are no peer-reviewed papers supporting his claims that complex molecular systems, like the bacterial flagellum, the blood-clotting cascade, and the immune system, were intelligently designed. (21:61-62 (complex molecular systems), 23:4-5 (immune system), and 22:124-25 (blood-clotting cascade) (Behe)). In that regard, there are no peer-reviewed articles supporting Professor Behe's argument that certain complex molecular structures are "irreducibly complex."17 (21:62, 22:124-25 (Behe)). In addition to failing to produce papers in peer-reviewed journals, ID also features no scientific research or testing. (28:114-15 (Fuller); 18:22-23, 105-06 (Behe)). After this searching and careful review of ID as espoused by its proponents,

Case 4:04-cv-02688-JEJ Document 342 Filed 12/20/2005 Page 89 of 139

as elaborated upon in submissions to the Court, and as scrutinized over a six week trial, we find that ID is not science and cannot be adjudged a valid, accepted scientific theory as it has failed to publish in peer-reviewed journals, engage in research and testing, and gain acceptance in the scientific community. ID, as noted, is grounded in theology, not science. Accepting for the sake of argument its proponents', as well as Defendants' argument that to introduce ID to students will encourage critical thinking, it still has utterly no place in a science curriculum. Moreover, ID's backers have sought to avoid the scientific scrutiny which we have now determined that it cannot withstand by advocating that the controversy, but not ID itself, should be taught in science class. This tactic is at best disingenuous, and at worst a canard. The goal of the IDM is not to encourage critical thought, but to foment a revolution which would supplant evolutionary theory with ID. To conclude and reiterate, we express no opinion on the ultimate veracity of ID as a supernatural explanation. However, we commend to the attention of those who are inclined to superficially consider ID to be a true "scientific" alternative to evolution without a true understanding of the concept the foregoing detailed analysis. It is our view that a reasonable, objective observer would, after reviewing both the voluminous record in this case, and our narrative, reach the inescapable conclusion that ID is an interesting theological argument, but that it is not science.

Case 4:04-cv-02688-JEJ Document 342 Filed 12/20/2005 Page 90 of 139

Source: Kitzmiller et al. v Dover Area School District et al..

In view of Behe's stunning performance on the witness stand, one is moved to opine that a wooden dummy couldn't have done any worse.

Formidable intellect, indeed.

42 posted on 08/17/2006 1:08:10 PM PDT by longshadow (FReeper #405, entering his ninth year of ignoring nitwits, nutcases, and recycled newbies)
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To: publius1

What was the point of posting this?

If you have questions about evolution, freepmail a fella with the handle "Patrick Henry" and he will add you to the evolution pinglist.

Or check out his Freep-page. There are lots of helpful links posted there.


43 posted on 08/17/2006 1:12:10 PM PDT by stands2reason (ANAGRAM for the day: Socialist twaddle == Tact is disallowed)
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To: JamesP81

Why don't you wait for the persecution before keening over it.


44 posted on 08/17/2006 1:12:53 PM PDT by stands2reason (ANAGRAM for the day: Socialist twaddle == Tact is disallowed)
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To: DannyTN

Reread that sentence.


45 posted on 08/17/2006 1:15:06 PM PDT by stands2reason (ANAGRAM for the day: Socialist twaddle == Tact is disallowed)
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To: publius1
Too many ad hominems to be taken seriously. This guy obviously bears a personal grudge against Ann--as if she insulted his religion.

And considering the article, maybe she did. He should just declare her a witch and demand that she and her book be burned.
46 posted on 08/17/2006 1:16:02 PM PDT by Antoninus (Public schools are the madrassas of the American Left. --Ann Coulter, Godless)
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To: Dante Alighieri
You're joking right? You're justifying the Inquisition and all that?

Find me a court in Europe that produced less death sentences than the Inquisition over the same time period and then maybe we can have a rational discussion about it.
47 posted on 08/17/2006 1:20:15 PM PDT by Antoninus (Public schools are the madrassas of the American Left. --Ann Coulter, Godless)
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To: RoadTest
Evolution is basically religious dogma restated in scientific terms.

No, it isn't.

The fact of creation is according to the Word of The Creator.

Moses wrote the NT. You believe he was told what to write by God. THAT is religious dogma. That is your faith, not evidence.

Speaking of that, why should he "evolve" man when he knew what the finished product would be like before he ever created a lizard?

Why shouldn't he? You seem to think God wouldn't work that way.

Evolution doesn't mean that God wouldn't know what he would create.

48 posted on 08/17/2006 1:21:21 PM PDT by stands2reason (ANAGRAM for the day: Socialist twaddle == Tact is disallowed)
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To: Dante Alighieri
Interesting. I never knew that it was that easy to revise history.

It's quite easy when you discover that the "history" you were taught was based on polemical literature and does not correspond to the primary sources.
49 posted on 08/17/2006 1:21:35 PM PDT by Antoninus (Public schools are the madrassas of the American Left. --Ann Coulter, Godless)
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To: Amos the Prophet

People who usually post on science threads aren't afraid to read.

Dense and obtuse? You have to be kidding.


50 posted on 08/17/2006 1:23:14 PM PDT by stands2reason (ANAGRAM for the day: Socialist twaddle == Tact is disallowed)
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To: madprof98

This is a biologist? Where did you get that?

(I couldn't read the whole screed, it was ridiculous.)


51 posted on 08/17/2006 1:25:12 PM PDT by stands2reason (ANAGRAM for the day: Socialist twaddle == Tact is disallowed)
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To: madprof98
I was prepared to really hate Coulter's discussion of evolution--didn't even read it for weeks after I'd finished the rest of the book--but actually, it's quite interesting. I wondered how a biologist on the other team would respond. Now I see: He responds with the same malice he criticizes in Coulter herself, without once responding to her argument.

I felt exactly the same way. I think that evolution is the most reasonable explanation for animal speciation. But Coulter's writing on the subject was thought-provoking--particularly her expose on the treatment of Richard Sternberg by some within the scientific community, as well as her description of the Scopes Monkey Trial. Very informative stuff.

By writing a review of this variety, this guy is proving Coulter's point: If you step out of line with the Left's "creation myth", they will excoriate you and try to ruin your life.
52 posted on 08/17/2006 1:26:32 PM PDT by Antoninus (Public schools are the madrassas of the American Left. --Ann Coulter, Godless)
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To: madprof98

He's an ecologist. Ick.


53 posted on 08/17/2006 1:26:39 PM PDT by stands2reason (ANAGRAM for the day: Socialist twaddle == Tact is disallowed)
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch

What is the difference? Anti-evos use the terms interchangeably.


54 posted on 08/17/2006 1:27:49 PM PDT by stands2reason (ANAGRAM for the day: Socialist twaddle == Tact is disallowed)
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To: longshadow
In view of Behe's stunning performance on the witness stand, one is moved to opine that a wooden dummy couldn't have done any worse. Formidable intellect, indeed.

O horrible man! What about the feelings of those who disagree with you? I accuse your theory -- and thus people like you -- of being like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. You can't be a conservative. Go back to DU! I'm hitting the abuse button. WAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! You will learn the truth, but it will be too late. And I will laugh! As for your feelings, I don't care. Only my feelings are important.
</END LUDDITE RANT>

55 posted on 08/17/2006 1:31:36 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Everything is blasphemy to somebody.)
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To: PatrickHenry

The article was SPOT ON IMHO.


56 posted on 08/17/2006 1:35:18 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: RadioAstronomer
Funny thing is, I've always liked Coulter. I've got two of her earlier books. It's just that when she ventured out of her field of expertise and into science -- where she clearly knows nothing -- she made a fool of herself. But not, of course, to those who are ignorant of science as she is.

I hope she's got the sense to realize her error, publicly recants this unfortunate episode of Luddism, and recovers her reputation. She was too valuable to conservatism to go out in a blaze of silliness.

Ann -- I know you're lurking! -- I haven't given up on you. But this latest book is an embarrassment.

57 posted on 08/17/2006 1:44:49 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Everything is blasphemy to somebody.)
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To: murphE

Thank you.


58 posted on 08/17/2006 1:51:52 PM PDT by pgyanke (Christ embraces sinners; liberals embrace the sin.)
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To: publius1
Whatta screed! Coyne spends all his time attacking the messenger rather than engaging her arguments. And then says that anyone who agrees with her must be a moron. By implication, anyone who agrees with him is a genius....

Well that clears up everything, now doesn't it? :^)

He does seem pretty exercised about Ann's brief, however. Jeepers, you'd think that the "central paradigm of biology" ought to be fairly bullet-proof, impervious to Ann's little slings and arrows. But I suspect folks like Coyne must have their own doubts about it; otherwise, why get down in the gutter and attack people who make astute objections and draw reasonable associations between neo-Darwinist theory and the devolution of Western culture?

Name calling doth not a reasonable argument make.

59 posted on 08/17/2006 1:57:03 PM PDT by betty boop (Nature loves to hide. -- Heraclitus)
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To: All

Many here seem somewhat exercised by the style of Coyne's writing, and perhaps rightly so.

Reading the review it is absolutely obviously a pastiche of Coulter's own style, and rather well done, in my honest opinion; replete with stylish ad hominem just like La Coulter's work. Great, if you like that kind of thing, and I would have expected the Coulter worshippers to lap it up. ;)

Two wrongs don't make a right however.


60 posted on 08/17/2006 2:11:58 PM PDT by Thatcherite (I'm PatHenry I'm the real PatHenry all the other PatHenrys are just imitators)
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