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To: pollyannaish
The hardest part was identified in a Presidential speech that seems long ago and far away: They only have to succeed once, but we have to stop them every single time.

We are in for a long struggle.

The problem is only as difficult as you make it. If you set the solution parameters at an impossible level, then the solution is impossible. Making screeners waste their time searching Americans looking for Muslim terrorists is a waste of resources. The Muslims are not productive immigrants, we don't need them. Dropping smart bombs to knock out weapon holding non uniformed Jihadists amongst unarmed supporters turns the job into a cat and mouse game dangerous for our young warriors.

A more direct and economical set of solution parameters would be to exterminate all Muslim clerics that preach that America is the Great Satan, Jews are the offspring of pigs and monkeys, Jews control the world, Israel does not have the right to exist, women have to wear head coverings, and Muslims who convert to other religions are to be killed, and Islam is the only true religion. And I would throw in the destruction of Mecca and make outlawing Bibles illegal in Saudi Arabia. We have 1.2 billion Muslims mad and contemptuous of us now. We would then have 1.2 billion Muslims fearful are respectful of us.

19 posted on 08/13/2006 10:11:57 AM PDT by LoneRangerMassachusetts (The only good Mullah is a dead Mullah. The only good Mosque is the one that used to be there.)
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts

Am I dense or what? I don't believe exterminating anyone is the best answer, however coralling them where they belong so they can murder each other is probably better. think instead of trying to pick out the "good" ones (a matter of degree) from the "bad" ones, (since lying to the non-believers is perfectly acceptable) if the West is seriously considering that it wants to survive, is to begin mass deportations of all Muslims to their homelands. Period. End of story. Since conversion or destruction of all non-muslims is de facto part of their beliefs, and their beliefs are based on the koran, which is the word of God and not changeable, well, do we have a choice? We better start changing our laws and getting the PC crowd out of the picture real fast. If you had Communists and or Nazis on your shores, seeking to destroy your society, wouldn't you do the same?


21 posted on 08/13/2006 10:19:38 AM PDT by john drake
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts
Hmmm...and that would make us different from what the Muslim clerics are preaching how?

Let me respond one point at a time.

The problem is only as difficult as you make it. If you set the solution parameters at an impossible level, then the solution is impossible.

You are absolutely correct. The difference is morality. We could make a parking lot of the ME and build a big Walmart and call it good. But frankly, that is immoral. So, we have to set up moral parameters which, without question, make this a much more difficult fight. The "hearts and minds" effort is not easy, and perhaps impossible, but we must try.

Making screeners waste their time searching Americans looking for Muslim terrorists is a waste of resources.

You are also correct on this—to a point. "Americans" is a pretty generic term and undoubtedly includes people of all ethnic origins. That makes it nearly impossible to simply "sort out" non Americans. Radical Muslims come in all flavors, and while ME men between 18-40 have should be more carefully considered, it is becoming increasingly clear that they will ally themselves with anyone willing to convert to Islam and sign on to their world view. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world among many cultures including those in Asia and even some Europeans. It's hard to tell what people believe from the outside. Therefore, we need to profile by looking for specific behaviors as profiling specialists suggest.

Dropping smart bombs to knock out weapon holding non uniformed Jihadists amongst unarmed supporters turns the job into a cat and mouse game dangerous for our young warriors.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but all war is dangerous for our soldiers. They know that going in. We are blessed to have them take on the challenge of drawing the line between being a moral warrior and thrashing killers. When you look at the difference between, say, Hezbollah and the IDF, those distinctions are clear. We could fight dirty, but in doing so, we become no better than our enemy and have lost the moral high ground and in doing so completely lose the reason for fighting this thing in the first place. We ask these men and women to hold that line, to live and behave morally in the midst of chaos and IMO that is exactly what makes them so heroic. Anyone can cause mass destruction. True heroes are willing to take risks to save those not directly involved. Let me say this again—this distinction is the soul of the difference between us and the terrorists. Without that moral clarity and distinction, this is not a war worth fighting, or a conflict worth engaging.

A more direct and economical set of solution parameters would be to exterminate all Muslim clerics that preach that America is the Great Satan, et al.

Again you are correct, but wrong. There is no doubt that your solution would be more direct and economical. But how does it differ from what, say, the Nazis did to the Jews, or the Romans did to the Christians? From history we know that while we can diminish the tools of our enemies militarily, we can not obliterate a philosophy with force. Nazism and Communism still exist, but there power has been stripped because they have discredited themselves. For the most part, they are toothless monsters. In addition, Christianity is strong, as is Judaism, but if you look at them you see that in the mainstream they have moderated themselves over time. First, we take care of the imminent threat of violence. Then, the goal is to force Radical Islam and the extremist clerics to discredit themselves, while at the same time supporting those in the Islamic community who are willing to moderate themselves and their own belief system to peacefully coexist.

And I would throw in the destruction of Mecca and make outlawing Bibles illegal in Saudi Arabia. We have 1.2 billion Muslims mad and contemptuous of us now. We would then have 1.2 billion Muslims fearful are respectful of us.

Finally, this just made me laugh. We can not make laws for other countries, unless you support one world government...which I am assuming you do not. We can put pressure on them, but we can't make their laws. Secondly, if we use your proposed approach, I'm pretty sure that there would be close to 1 billion Muslims DEAD and maybe 2 million fearful and mad at us. Somehow, that doesn't seem like a particularly long term strategy since the remaining few would simply go underground only to reappear later to "get back at us." That is after all, what happens over and over in this world with a military-only approach to solving problems.

While I completely and utterly understand your frustration and your sentiments, I think you let your emotions get ahead of your logic. It's not that the goals are difficult, it is that the MORAL road to fixing the problem is difficult, as the moral road always is. There are no shortcuts in doing the right thing. Doing the right thing takes patience, sacrifice, responsibility, compassion, loyalty, calm rational thinking, and the ability to see long term. It takes hard work. It takes virtue. Last time I checked, those were all things that conservatives espoused and admired.

We must not shirk from our duty, just because to do so would be cheaper and easier.

27 posted on 08/13/2006 11:45:17 AM PDT by pollyannaish
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts
And I would throw in the destruction of Mecca

One of the tenets of Wahhabi Islam is that only Allah should be worshiped. They would be delighted to see the destruction of Mecca, especially since it provides the Saudis with a huge amount of income. I am not positive, but it may be that the Twelvers who await the Mahdi would take the destruction of Mecca as yet another delightful portent of the end of the world and coming of their messiah.

We would then have 1.2 billion Muslims fearful are respectful of us.

Do you have children? Were you a teenager? Fear does not engender respect. It engenders hatred and revenge. Right now, we are stronger, more successful, healthier and happier as a society in the West than are the majority in any Muslim country. We could take them all out w/nukes in a half hour. So, do they fear us? No, they are bound and determined to make their bones by standing up to us, despite the odds. Do they respect us? No, because we are decadent infidels and do not deserve these benefits which Allah meant for them. They believe we stole their rightful benefits from them.

I have no answers, either. The right of association means they can't be stopped from setting up the Little Islamic neighborhoods. Those who are citizens cannot be deported. Interning the Japanese accomplished nothing positive. We have a lot of problems stemming from the reservation system. Under the first Amendment,we can't ban the Koran or preaching of Islam. Plenty of true blue white and black Americans hate Jews and say so. Hasidic Jews wear distinctive clothing and head coverings and their women cover their heads, some going to the extent of cutting their hair very short and wearing wigs.

Yesterday, someone said in another thread that our culture would triumph and is our strongest weapon. I don't know. The Muslims seem to be able to exist despite our culture or their own participation in parts of it.

The frustration level is really high. I wouldn't be surprised to begin hearing of more and more Americans and perhaps other Westerners taking the fight to individual Muslims. I doubt that would make a difference, either, except to get those people jailed or killed.
30 posted on 08/13/2006 1:55:57 PM PDT by reformedliberal ("Eliminate the mullahs and Islam shall disappear in fifty years." Ayatollah Khomeini)
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