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Germany alarmed at lack of engineers [because young people think science is bad for the environment]
Yahoo News ^ | August 10, 2006 | Isabelle de Pommereau

Posted on 08/11/2006 4:31:10 AM PDT by grundle

FRANKFURT - When high school junior Daria Schirmer conducted scientific experiments with 8-year-olds as part of a school project this year – building a periscope or a compass with a magnet – she became not only an inventor of sorts but also part of the solution to what looms as one of Germany's greatest challenges: how to keep its sterling reputation as the world's leader in engineering.

For centuries, Germany led the world in technological prowess, from the motorcycle to the refrigerator. In the 19th century, inventors and entrepreneurs like Gottlieb Daimler, Carl Benz, and Carl Wilhelm Siemens developed products for brands still respected today. But over the past few years, young Germans have dramatically turned away from engineering – and now, the country needs 18,000 engineers – a third more than last year, according to the German Association of Engineers in Berlin. Alarmed that this gap could endanger Germany's engineering creativity, businesses are trying to stem the tide by launching a publicity campaign to make engineering sound like fun from kindergarten through university.

"The image of engineers has never been so bad," says Markus Roeser of Do Things, a coalition of 80 businesses, universities, and research institutes created five months ago to fill the engineering gap.

The group sponsors school projects, gives awards to youths making special scientific discoveries, awards scholarships, and helps engineering students find internships and young researchers commercialize their inventions.

"If we don't succeed in making young people enthusiastic about technical jobs again, we're running the risk of losing our place as the world's leading exporter," of manufactured goods and technologies, says Mr. Roeser.

"The lack of engineers is Germany's No. 1 hindrance to innovation," says Roeser. "At stake is to keep Germany's creative potential."

"Little Einstein Experiments," the pilot project that had pupils like Daria visit grade schools to do experiments every week, is the crux of this publicity campaign. Sponsored by the German state of Hessen's entrepreneurs association, it is meant to awaken scientific thirst early on.

"Children are naturally curious about learning. It's important to encourage their enthusiasm so that the fun doing experiments lasts," says Monika Zieleniewicz, Daria's physics teacher at the Albert Einstein High School in suburban Frankfurt who supervised the program. "That's how you help develop children's motivation for those fields."

"The focus has to be on the schools," says Benjamin Burde of the Berlin-based Mathematics and Science Excellence Centers in Schools, which supports mathematics, computers, science, and technology education. He notes that in Germany, those disciplines have almost disappeared from the school curriculum.

How engineering lost its cachet

Being an engineer no longer has the high status it once enjoyed.

In the mid 1960s, 41 percent of Germans said engineering was a job they had a lot of admiration for. In 2001, only 22 percent said so, according to the Association of Engineers.

A study by the Allensbach Research Institute, Germany's leading polling firm, found in 2003 that being an engineer ranked seventh among young people as a prestigious career behind pastors, doctors, and university professors.

Part of Germany's engineering decline started in the 1970s as the environmental movement grew and people started questioning the impacts of ever-faster energy-hungry technologies on society and the environment.

By making people skeptical about technological progress, it gradually hurt the prestige of engineering jobs says Joerg Feuchhofen, head of the Association of Entrepreneurs in Hessen, which represents 100,000 entrepreneurs in the state of Hessen. "The Germans often looked at it as something that endangered the environment," says Mr. Feuchthofen. "That's a reason why the fields covering ... technology have lost ground in the education system."

Ten years ago, there were twice as many engineering students at universities than today according to the German Association of Engineers.

The problem isn't new. But attention was focused on the dearth of engineers this spring when Airbus-Germany announced it couldn't find 600 engineers needed as they gear up to expand their production over the next two years.

"That Germany can't fulfill a major order in China that would have created many jobs was a big shock for the nation," says Roeser.

Indeed, Airbus isn't the only firm hindered by Germany's current lack of engineers. Thirty percent of German employers say they are short engineers, according to a survey by the German Association of Engineers.

"At least four or five years ago, people came to interviews," says Andrea Gossel of the Schunk Group, an international car-part manufacturer headquartered in the small village of Heuchelheim. "Today they don't ever bother to show up."


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: engineering; europe; germany
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To: thackney
"There is a shortage of power engineers. I need people who understand cable comes in size like 500 kcmil and can spec out switchgear and motor control centers."

I think there is a disconnect going on in this discussion.

You say "there is quite a shortage of engineers"

Engineers say "there's no shortage; that's why lots of engineers are flipping burgers and working at Lowe's."

I think maybe both are correct, but only if your statement is modified like this: "There is quite a shortage of engineers with the specific experience I am looking for"

My observation from hiring engineers is that most managers want someone who has very specific experience. There is no training available for engineers anymore and companies expect to hire someone who is ready to hit the ground running, so to speak. There is no thought given to hiring someone to be a productive employee for a long period of time, i.e., someone who has good basic skills and a good work ethic.

Yes, they will hire someone with just basic skills -- but only for very low wages. Hence the growth in outsourcing and H1-Bs and the willingness to hire new grads.

This plague upon engineering seems unique to the field. My family members who are accountants don't seem to get pigeonholed into a specific area of expertise as easily as engineers. But when a company sets out to hire a EE or CE they expect to find someone with experience working with a specific family of processors and a specific set of development tools, and if they can't find that they get impatient.

Sure, they could find someone with related skills and give them some OJT-type training but they are not willing. It's easier to just complain that "there is a shortage of engineers so we need more H1-Bs".

IOW, there's really not a shortage. There are people who could step into those jobs and no doubt some of the engineers would rather take a pay cut and retrain in another area of expertise than go flip burgers, but employers won't even consider doing that.

41 posted on 08/11/2006 8:54:02 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: webstersII
My observation from hiring engineers is that most managers want someone who has very specific experience. There is no training available for engineers anymore and companies expect to hire someone who is ready to hit the ground running, so to speak. There is no thought given to hiring someone to be a productive employee for a long period of time, i.e., someone who has good basic skills and a good work ethic.

As both an engineer and someone who hires engineers, I have a different point of view. But for someone whose training and experience was computer hardware, I'm not interested in a couple years of training to make them competent enough to design a 13,800 Volt Switchgear. But I can use people from the pulp/paper or other industry who has experience in 480V motor control centers, UPS and power transformers and train them about hazardous area classification and the specific codes we have to follow. EE is a broad field and it takes more than a little training to make large jumps in technology.

42 posted on 08/11/2006 9:01:29 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney

"But for someone whose training and experience was computer hardware, I'm not interested in a couple years of training to make them competent enough to design a 13,800 Volt Switchgear."

That's pretty obvious. I probably didn't explain myself well, because that's not what I meant.

I have the same background as you, but in the computer h/w and s/w area. And my observation is that they often look for someone with very specific expertise with a certain processor, certain design methodology and specific tools, and if they can't find that they fall back and post an H1-B. My thoughts are that someone with good skills in h/w and s/w can adapt to another processor or some other tool but I get alot of pushback on this.


43 posted on 08/11/2006 9:08:21 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: webstersII
I have the same background as you, but in the computer h/w and s/w area.

Then you don't have the same background. I specialized in power, I took no electronics or computer design courses besides the absolute minimum required. I have never worked in the electronics or utility industry. When I took my PE exam, I flipped passed the computer section and tested in power. Quite honestly, although your degree says BSEE, you have as much in common with our work as a mechanical engineer. You have a high level of knowledge and the ability to learn. Perhaps on the instrument and control side you could fit in. We do do training, but not from scratch.

44 posted on 08/11/2006 9:15:31 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: webstersII
I have never worked in the electronics or utility industry.

I jumbled to thoughts together there. I never worked electronics or computers. I moved from the utility industry to the petrochem.

45 posted on 08/11/2006 9:17:08 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: grundle

"...its sterling reputation as the world's leader in engineering."

Huh?


46 posted on 08/11/2006 9:19:53 AM PDT by DennisR (Look around - God is giving you countless observable clues of His existence!)
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To: webstersII

Excellent post!

I think you sum up the situation pretty well.

In the many years that I worked for Fortune 500 companies as an EE, I was never offered a chance by the company to upgrade my HW/SW skills. What I did, I did on my own.

I repeatedly ask to attend classes on newer processors or new languages. It was never granted.

There appears to be a prevailing mentality that engineers are commodity items, to be used and discarded. No attempt is made to train engineers in newer technologies that will be useful to the company and the employee.

A good friend of mine actully overheard our CEO state the opinion that "After you have employed an engineer for 5 years it's time to get rid of him, he's obsolete"

This kind of thinking will guarantee "shortages" forever.

If we treated doctors like this, we'd be in a world of hurt.


47 posted on 08/11/2006 10:02:16 AM PDT by EEDUDE
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To: thackney
You need to understand that engineering is market driven just like anything else. Except in this case, the "market" is available research funding. Universities hire faculty in areas that are "hot". Electric power engineering is not one of them. Industry needs are irrelevant.

Believe it or not I know exactly what a "kcmil" is.
48 posted on 08/11/2006 10:17:42 AM PDT by Locomotive Breath (In the shuffling madness)
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To: DennisR

Have you seen the new VW adverts with "Dr. Z" touting "German Engineering". I just laugh.


49 posted on 08/11/2006 10:20:45 AM PDT by Locomotive Breath (In the shuffling madness)
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To: grundle
Notice what the article implies.

There are few if any engineers in the environmental movement.
50 posted on 08/11/2006 10:34:48 AM PDT by GreenOgre (mohammed is the false prophet of a false god.)
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To: thackney

"You have a high level of knowledge and the ability to learn. Perhaps on the instrument and control side you could fit in. We do do training, but not from scratch."

I'm not looking to move; I'm merely having a discussion.

And you completely missed my point.


51 posted on 08/11/2006 10:35:27 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: RightWhale

I recently snagged a copy of "Hitler's Gift", a Brit book about the many (mostly) Jewish scientists who bailed out of Germany and settled in GB or USA prior to WWII (Einstein, etc). Good read.


52 posted on 08/11/2006 10:40:12 AM PDT by Ready4Freddy (Hey, look man, I didn't mean to shoot the son of a b!tch. The gun went off. I don't know why.)
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To: grundle

"All your German rocket scientists are belong to us" (or the rooskis) ;>)


53 posted on 08/11/2006 10:41:03 AM PDT by Ready4Freddy (Hey, look man, I didn't mean to shoot the son of a b!tch. The gun went off. I don't know why.)
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To: grundle

Beliefs have consequences.


54 posted on 08/11/2006 10:42:06 AM PDT by TChris (Banning DDT wasn't about birds. It was about power.)
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To: EEDUDE

"In the many years that I worked for Fortune 500 companies as an EE, I was never offered a chance by the company to upgrade my HW/SW skills. What I did, I did on my own."

Yep, sounds familiar.

"A good friend of mine actully overheard our CEO state the opinion that "After you have employed an engineer for 5 years it's time to get rid of him, he's obsolete"

They do exhibit that kind of thinking.

I suppose it's the project nature of the work. They really just want to staff up when they have a project to do. Problem is that when the project is done there can be some down time until the next one. That kind of stuff drives bean counters crazy.

"engineers are commodity items"

A friend of mine has a sign which says, "Engineering designs -- 3 for a dollar". That's the way managers look at it, sort of like, "I have a leaky faucet, I call a plumber. When the plumber is finished I don't continue to pay him until the next time I need a faucet worked on. Why should I keep engineers around when their project is finished?"


55 posted on 08/11/2006 10:44:08 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: EEDUDE

EE's without work..

Apply here:

http://www.selinc.com/careers/index.html


56 posted on 08/11/2006 10:50:08 AM PDT by MD_Willington_1976
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To: Locomotive Breath
Correction: Doctor Z, the bald guy with the luxurious mustache in the DaimerChrysler commercials, is Dieter Zetsche, their chairman. Wolfgang, the VW engineer who wants to "unpimp your auto", preferably with some large and lethal boobytrap, is actually Peter Stormare, the Swedish actor. Doctor Z actually is an engineer. Stormare just plays one on TV.
57 posted on 08/11/2006 11:00:03 AM PDT by RichInOC ("What time is it?" "I dunno." "Time...to unpimp ze auto!")
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To: Locomotive Breath
I do understand, it was the same "hot" markets 20 years ago when I was in school. That was one of the reasons I went power. You could find a computer engineer everywhere, power programs and the engineers coming out of them were hard to find. And it takes more than magic pixie dust to bring power to all those computers.

I still constantly trip on kcmil. I almost always write MCM then have to go back and fix it.
58 posted on 08/11/2006 11:46:04 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: RichInOC

Yep - my mistake. But the point still holds for either VW or Daimler.


59 posted on 08/11/2006 12:15:57 PM PDT by Locomotive Breath (In the shuffling madness)
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To: oceanview
and what wage did they expect those skilled workers to take?

I don't think that was the problem. The problem from their point of view was that in Germany there is a class of "skilled workers", people who may not have an engineering degree, but are highly skilled at manufacturing techniques such as high-end machining. Apparently these people are harder to find in the U.S.

60 posted on 08/11/2006 5:19:43 PM PDT by wideminded
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